CARB, wish me luck

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, I used the same title from the Coldside application. Maybe we will get another Christmas present this year? :) Last year they gave it to me on December 24th. There's hope.

The application went out in today's mail. They should have it by Tuesday. Say your bedtime prayers.

http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/Hotside/Hotside-CARB.jpg

[Digitac]

Good luck!! How many pounds of boost did you put down on this application?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It had to stay the same as the Coldside. I am hoping they will issue an ammendment of the Coldside D-617 to include the hotside. So it had to stay 105/65 pulley, 10PSI, etc.

[jwalton]

All of my respective fingers are crossed for you Tom. Of course, I'm not doing that bit of digit gymnastics out of an entirely pure heart...

If they give you/us the Christmas present this year, you'll even get an order from me for the 105 pulley. I'll take the small HP drop for the worry free smog check. I'll turn the other pulley into an ornament for my tree or something.

Speaking of pulleys as ornaments:

BTW, I never said anything before, but you should see what driving through that sandstorm the day I left your home after picking up the car from Mike's did to the crank pulley. The belt picked up loads of sand and the pulley crammed it into the belt slots which in turn chewed up the crowns of the crank pulley. Amazingly, the SC pulley doesn't look anywhere near as bad. Purely cosmetic damage so I never worried about it. But the blinky lights on my tree will expose those highlights and make it look all the more pretty. :)

[cmetzner]

Tom -

Have you posted the instructions for your hotside? I wanted to get a look at the stuff I will need to add in order to be legal.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I haven't posted the install instructions as yet but, if they extend the D-617 license, the requirements will be as listed in D-617.

The Fast Forward Supercharger Kit consists of the following main components: Magnuson MP62 supercharger with a 65 mm diameter pulley, 105 mm diameter crankshaft pulley, intake manifold with an additional fuel injector, BBK throttle body, open element style air filter, and Jackson Racing PowerCard Pro (no user adjustments). Maximum boost is 10 psi. Supplied fuel hose is manufactured and labeled to SAE J30R9 standards.

[cmetzner]

Does this mean that your hotside kit has a replacement intake manifold?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

No. It uses the stock manifold. The key in that sentence is the "manifold with a fifth injector". The type of manifold doesn't matter. In the case of the hotside it is a stock manifold.

That is not to say we won't have a replacement manifold for the stock manifold as an option.

[Wayne-n-Fla]

That is not to say we won't have a replacement manifold for the stock manifold as an option.
You mean this is back in the works
http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=557&page=2&highlight=manifold

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yep. Actually, all I need is the diameter of the pipe you hotside guys would like to see for the inlet to the manifold. My guess is that it should either match the crossover pipe or match the DTB. I do believe ther is a step down coupling used there?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

OK. First CARB letter failed due to a couple of MINOR un-dotted "i" and a couple un-crossed "T". Second version is being printed right now and will be in tomorrows mail. I'm sure there will be a third version before I am done but there is still a week 'till Christmas. :)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Just got an email back that my CARB connection is on vacation from now until Jan 14th. :(

[FormerDatsun510Man]

LOL It is government run, right? :biggrin:

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Tomorrow is the 14th. :)

[Mathrips]

Actually today is the 14th.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, it's getting closer no matter how you look at it. ;)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, CARB says that the intake manifold is different enough from the Coldside to not allow the exemption wthout re-testing. We got a new and different examiner. Had it still been the same one, I am sure it would have passed.

I tried but it just isn't worth another $20K for me to do the hotside. Besides, the 05 is gone so I would have to go buy another 03-05. Sorry guys.

[Steve in VC]

What if you make an adapter to connect the hotside output to your current cold side manifold?

It's a silly suggestion. But, when I talked to CARB about adding an intercooler to a hotside supercharger - and I told them I was an individual, not a company - they didn't know what to do with me.... They seem pretty silly.


$20K for testing - you would have to sell a lot to us Californians to recoup that expense.

If you added an intercooler to the testing, I would place an order. Are there any other Californian's willing to commit to an order?

Steve in VC

[Satisaii]

Another example of how the government encourages US businesses.

[MiataMTF]

Another example of how the government encourages US businesses.
Sad as this situation is, I personally have to comment a lot of CARB's efforts to clean up the air. Most of the national improvements to emissions came from initiatives that originated in CA. The next major cleanup is going to affect diesel particulate emissions - no more blue smoke.

I second the idea of using the coldside manifold with an adapter. It won't be as clean as a purpose-built hotside manifold but at least it would carry a CARB E.O.

[Satisaii]

I agree CARB is necessary, but I object to the manner in which they operate.

Make it a more involved tail pipe test. If you pass, you are legal. Nothing else matters.

On the other hand, make it where a cop can make you take a test on the spot... the test should be free in this case, but be prepared for a huge fine if you fail badly. And that should be doubled for the test pipe user.

[Steve in VC]

I lived in LA in the late 60's, CARB did a lot!

But, the "cost" in time, effort, and real $ prohibits a lot of innovation.

In the grand scheme, what is good for the air is good for the driver. If you run rich, too many hydrocarbons out the exhaust pipe - too many $ into the gas tank. Too lean, to many nitrous oxides out the tail pipe, too many $ on a new engine.

Adding an intercooler to a supercharger reduces air temp, and boost level. Reduced boost level takes less HP to run the blower (for the same number of air molecules). Lower intake temp means lower exhaust gas temp, less nitrous oxides. Lower intake temp requires less cooling fuel (e-cool), less hydrocarbons.

A engine running boost gets better gas mileage, and pollutes less air than a N/A engine with the same peak power.

And more boost is better. For example, an automotive diesel (~15lbs of boost) converts fuel to energy with 40% efficiency, a big rig diesel (~45lb of boost) converts at 55%, because the engine is running closer to capacity while cruising.

Rant, rant, rant.... Sorry,

Steve

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I already make a hotside that uses the Coldside manifold and it is CARB approved. It's called the Coldside. ;)

The costs to do this all over for the small market and the smaoler market of hotsides just isn't worthwhile for me. Sorry. My market is the under 220 WHP buyer who wants a daily driver that'll run on 91 octane. 85% of my kit owners never track/AX. I would project that I would sell less than 5 hotside kits a year into CA. It would take a long time to recover $20,000. I would also have to find a 2003-2005 to use (sold my 05) to test. That car would be 3-5 years old now. I would have to base line test and probably work on it (new cat at least) just to be sure the kit didn't fail because the engine was tired.


What if you make an adapter to connect the hotside output to your current cold side manifold?

It's a silly suggestion. But, when I talked to CARB about adding an intercooler to a hotside supercharger - and I told them I was an individual, not a company - they didn't know what to do with me.... They seem pretty silly.


$20K for testing - you would have to sell a lot to us Californians to recoup that expense.

If you added an intercooler to the testing, I would place an order. Are there any other Californian's willing to commit to an order?

Steve in VC

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, it ain't dead yet. I am making one more try. Should know more later today.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, NOW it's dead. The crossover pipe could lead to significant emissions problems. It went on from there.

"The difference in the intake manifold was just the main reason for determining the need for more testing. There is also the difference in the routing of the charge air. The coldside kit routes the air directly into the intake manifold whereas the air in the hotside kit must first be sent across the cylinder head (i.e., higher throttled air volume). This is also a significant enough change in configuration."

[wineguy]

So, other than a new manifold casting, what would it take for a coldside 1.6? :biggrin:

Would it perhaps fall into the same as the 1.8 EO?

Inquiring minds want to know...

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I don't know but I am seriously considering it. :)

CARB guys did say that a 90-93 COLDSIDE would be easy to CARB as 90-93 had very loose emissions standards.

[lovemx5]

Go for it. Part number: FFS-9093-CS-CA would be cool. :biggrin:

[wineguy]

Count me in... (just gotta scrap together the $)

I would much prefer the simplicity of a coldside setup vs. the hotside!

:cheers2:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I will take it under consideration. ;)

I could do it with a machined manifold for a limited run, I guess? Let me get past the new automatic kit and the new $2995 Coldside and I'll take a look.

Does anybody have the dimensions for center to center for the the intake ports and the dimensions of the intake ports for the 1.6L?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Just thought you would like to know that the Moss MP62 hotside is CARB certified.

D-453-8

[gludlow]

I could do it with a machined manifold for a limited run, I guess? Let me get past the new automatic kit and the new $3995 ($2995 - GML) Coldside and I'll take a look.

Sure, sure, blame it all on me... ;-)

Sorry to hear about CARB. I work at a large engine manufacturing company, I know how tough emissions standards are. They have the best engineers in the world doing backflips to meet the some very strict requirements. But in the end it's always an economic choice!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

We have started the investigation of a 1.6L Coldside. I think the cost of a machined manifold will be the deal breaker but??

Gram, thanks for catching the $2995 error. I fixed it in my post. An error like that is not the best way to woo new customers. :)

[cmetzner]

Just thought you would like to know that the Moss MP62 hotside is CARB certified.

D-453-8


Tom -

I have not checked in on these boards in a while. How could your hotside be bounced out and Moss' be approved? Is there that much of a difference in the two hotside kits?

[Steve in VC]

The most significant difference to me is the Moss MP62 is only 6psi, the same as their M45 based kit.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

All I can say is that I took another shot at it Monday and I think if I go further, I will really piss them off. :(

They still said that the crossover pipe is what they think will really screw up emissions. And that is the difference between my Coldside and Hotside that is stopping it. If I had a volunteer woith a MP62 hotside on a 2003-2005 with reasonable mileage that wanted to volunteer it for me to add my parts (BTB, E-Cool, PC-Pros, etc) and test, I would supply the parts for free. I would probably need the car for a week.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Mine is only 10PSI, same as my Coldside CARBed Coldside.

The most significant difference to me is the Moss MP62 is only 6psi, the same as their M45 based kit.

[cmetzner]

They still said that the crossover pipe is what they think will really screw up emissions.


I am not an engineer but - the stock configuration has a crossover pipe. The Moss m62 has a crossover pipe. And doesn't the Jackson m45 have a crossover pipe?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I am an engineer and I can say unequivacably that all three of those have crossover pipes. ;)

[Steve in VC]

Tom,

Do you put e-cool on the hot side or cold side? Then the "difference" is you have a small amount of fuel in the crossover.

Can you move e-cool by using the cold side manifold? Will you have enough turbulence and heat to get proper e-cool operation?

When you talk to CARB, can you refer to the Moss MP62 system as an approved system with significant similarities?

Good luck!

Steve

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Steve,

On the hotside kits, the E-Cool injector still locates in a similar location as the Coldside. It mounts in the side of the dummy throttle body.

I offered to use the Coldside manifold and intake connection like this:

http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/Hotside/hotside-im.jpg

That would put the incoming air, E-Cool and EGR in EXACTLY the same spot as the Coldside. That was when he said the crossover tube was the main concern.

I then wrote back and told him that we start by purchasing the Moss kit and adding our parts to make it the same as our Coldside. That is when I was informed that adding my parts would negate their EO. Well, duh, I knew that. So, anyhow, I have no other recourse.

Find me a 2003-2005 with reasonable miles and a Moss or BRP hotside and I will convert it to mine and re-test. Hmm, wonder if I could borrow Moss's?

[BlownMX5]

Tom, do you know if the Moss EO covers the earlier BRP kit also?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I have no idea? I do rather doubt it?

[MS2KSE]

Is that the new hotside manifold ?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yep. That is what I showed a few months back as an alternative to the BRP R4 manifold.

[Robin]

Well Tom, have you heard from the CARB bureaucracy yet?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

:( There will be no FFS hotside with CARB approval. I suggest the Moss kit. It went from M45 to MP62 and CARB transferred. Mine was refused because the crossover pipe could cause serious emissions problems.

[Robin]

Sorry to hear that and I apolgize for being the 500th californian to ask that question. I can feel the fustrations in your typing. So close. thanks for the quick response.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

My sarcasm is showing? :)