Begi

[V8KILR]

i was wondering about the begi moab because i was refered by a fellow miata enthusiast. does anyone know antone who has one or if it is better than the ffs coldside?

[MS2KSE]

From how a friend explained it to me , the moab is a cold side in ONLY that it mounts on the cold side vs the hot side. It uses an inner cooler so there is not much difference between it and a FFS hotside if you were after high HP and
the cost [$$/HP] over what a FFS cold side will provide will cost you dearly and keep on costing you.
just my $.02

[Scuba Steve]

WHen you ask which is better, you need to define your needs before one can be called better. They are two totaly different kits. One is intercooled, one is not. One is a roots blower, one is a twin screw. There is also a 1k+ price difference between the kits. One is upgradeable for more power, one is not.

I am pulling the hotside blower off my '00 and selling it. I just bought a '94 with the MOAB, but haven't picked it up yet, the car is in Michigan. I won't get to drive it until the March/April timeframe :driving:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The MOAB is the same kit that FM was selling as the UBER charger. You should ask Keith at FM why they quit selling it.

[V8KILR]

i did call them looking forr and intercooler for my 96 coldside and they said they quit developing it becauswe they found a better design
also what i meant by better is, how reliable how much hp can u get, because i am very loyal to superchargers vs. turbos, whether it cost less or not, i will never go turbo

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Almost every UBER owner lost at least one supercherger. Geoff in Tucson lost the first one and the cause of death was that it was being over-spun to make 300 WHP. The solution was a smaller pulley which then made 250 WHP. The latest solution is that they bought it back and are giving him a turbo to get back to the 300 WHP as sold.

[V8KILR]

0K well the concept of spinning the sc confuses me. i would imagine the smaller the pulley, the faster the sc would be spinning, so what do you get higher boost from, a smaller or larger pulley

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

You are correct. However, the SC pulley is pretty small already. We change the crank pulley to larger sizes to make more boost.

[V8KILR]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooh i get it now, the crank pulley is the one at the bottom of the engine, connected to the CRANK :oops: man ive got a lot to learn

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

You were on the right path. blower speed is crank pulley divided by supercharger pulley times engine speed. As you can see, you either make the SC pulley smaller or the crank pulley bigger to make more boost.

[V8KILR]

thanx man. and thanx for refering me to this forum. People at the miata.net forum were just laughing at me because i didnt know as much as them
i just never thought about the crank pulley, i always thought that when people were saying like 105- 115 mm they were talking about the sc pulley, and never went out to measure anything

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The FFS blower pulleys are always 65mm.

[V8KILR]

do u sell smaller sc pulleys

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

No. Only 65mm.

[V8KILR]

BTW the BEGi MOAB is not a roots charger. Its a Lysholm Twin Screw.

[Gord96BRG]

People at the miata.net forum were just laughing at me because i didnt know as much as them
Hi over here too! I will disagree with your statement above - people weren't laughing at you because you didn't know as much as them. People started giving you a hard time because you were asking questions and ignoring the answers, or you were being told correct stuff and you were arguing back about it.

It looks like you're keeping more of an open mind and willingness to learn over here; that same attitude would get you much further over at Miata.net as well!

[FormerDatsun510Man]

To elaborate, Tom has made it clear to me that the 65mm blower pulley is a good size to stay with for reasons of maintaining good belt wrap and keeping any slippage problems away. The best way to increase boost is to stay with the 65mm blower pulley and change the crank pulley even though it is slightly more expensive this way. You get better belt wrap and also this moves the belt out more so that the automatic tensioner can put more tension on the belt.

The BEGI MOAB uses a twin-screw Lysholm 1200 supercharger. It has a displacement of 1200cc. The FFS Coldside, FFS Hotside, Moss MP62 and current FM supercharger all use the Magnuson MP62. It is a modified Roots design supercharger and has a displacement of 62cid which is 1000cc. The difference in these two superchargers is the intended power and boost levels.

The Magnuson MP62, is a modified Roots supercharger in that it is basically two rotors that move air. However, the rotors are twisted so that it creates less turbulence and has higher thermal efficiency than the original roots superchargers (termed "blowers") that were commonly used on '50s and '60s vintage drag cars. The MP62 has proven to be able to make power up to about 20psi and 300rwhp on the Miata, but it is most efficient in the 180-250rwhp range, which equates to about 6-15psi (boost depending on many factors of the kit design itself). The benefits of the MP62 are that not only is it very efficient up to about 15psi, but it doesn't create a lot of heat while cruising and at low boost levels.

The Lysholm 1200 is similar in appearance, but it is a different type of supercharger. Unlike the MP62, it has internal compression. With the MP62, it is basically just moving air through the supercharger and the compression takes place in the manifold after the supercharger. With the Lysholm 1200, it is compressing the air in the case of the supercharger between the rotors. This is done by a "twin screw" like design of the rotors, which looks very similar to the MP62 actually, but has closer tolerances. I believe this may also make the Lysholm more fragile than the MP62... there is less tolerance for case deflection before a rotor may contact it. Anyway, this internal compression allows the Lysholm to have higher efficiency than the MP62 for boost levels starting at around 13psi and up. From 10-12psi, either supercharger is pretty close... below 10psi the MP62 is a better choice. Also, this internal compression allows the Lysholm to efficiently be able to achieve very high boost levels (up to 25psi). The combination of the ability to run higher boost more efficiently and also its greater displacement, makes the Lysholm 1200 a better choice than the MP62 for max power levels (i.e. built engined) Miatas. They have been shown to make 320rwhp on built 1.9L engines at FM a couple years ago.

The BEGI MOAB mounts the supercharger on the "cold side", but unlike the FFS Coldside, it routes the air through a two part manifold. One part is actually the outlet of the supercharger and has pipe connected to it that goes to a front mount Air-Air Intercooler. That in turn has a pipe going back to the other part of the manifold which feeds the four intake ports on the cylinder head. The BEGI MOAB looks to me to be basically the older Uber, but with considerable refinements made. It uses a large throttle body mounted at an angle towards one of the rotors (for better volumetric efficiency), automatic tensioner for the 6-rib belt drive, completely revised intake system, etc. It looks pretty trick to me and is the sort of design I would look at for a track car that is being specially built for all-out power.... like 300+rwhp. This contrasts with the FFS Coldside, which is a much simpler non-intercooled kit that features great daily driveability and a "direct shot" for the supercharged air to feed the cylinder head. Not to take words out of Tom's mouth, but the Coldside target is for 200rwhp done the most direct way without making any sacrifices to drivebility or reliability.

IMHO, these are two different systems for entirely different purposes.

Bill

[V8KILR]

what exactly is "drivability" You guys use it like good drivability is when its easier to drive or something. Like with the ffs direct cold side design, its almost like driving a high powered NA engine? right? compared to a big turbo with an IC and a very pronounced lag, gives it less driveability?

[V8KILR]

Hi over here too! I will disagree with your statement above - people weren't laughing at you because you didn't know as much as them. People started giving you a hard time because you were asking questions and ignoring the answers, or you were being told correct stuff and you were arguing back about it.

It looks like you're keeping more of an open mind and willingness to learn over here; that same attitude would get you much further over at Miata.net as well!
Your probably right. I was very excited to have people like me, but smarter, that don't consider my car a gay, chick car, to talk to, and got a little out of control. And i had some false info. about my own car due to my father's ability to exaggerate sometimes.And the fact that he likes to boast having 20 more hp than we really have. But you have to admit. When you only ''HEARD'' the amount of hp, and never dynoed it yourself, 276 sounds a lot cooler than 256.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

what exactly is "drivability" You guys use it like good drivability is when its easier to drive or something. Like with the ffs direct cold side design, its almost like driving a high powered NA engine? right? compared to a big turbo with an IC and a very pronounced lag, gives it less driveability?

You've got it. Driveability refers to how "well" a setup drives. I suppose it can be somewhat up to the interpretation of the driver. To me, the smoother and more natural the setup drives the better the driveability. Without sudden changes in power or jerks throughout the rpm band the better the driveability. Running well when cold as well as when hot, having a good idle, not killing or idle dipping when the A/C is turned on, etc. indicates better driveability.

Bill

[V8KILR]

Well my cars idle droops when i turn on the a/c, and if your not paying attention, acceleration is clumsy and jerky. Three is a cold front right now and the car REALLY doesnt like it.The clutch, nor the engine likes to be used alot untill its all good and warm. So i guess my car doesnt have very good driveability.:(

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Hmmmm... you might need a PC Pro :). This is why I think a good tune on the dyno is a good idea.

Bill

[V8KILR]

im guesing the jrkyness of acceleration is because of how much hp, and the lightened flywheel. Other than that i don't know. And if i went to the dyno, i wouldn't know how to tune anything. I dont even know where my SS is.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Drop you glove box and see if there isn't a black box with some cables coming out of it mounted there. That was the place of choice for BRP.

[V8KILR]

in the glove box, or take the glove box out?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Behind the glove box. You would need to remove it. You could reach back there and see if you feel anything velcrowed to the back of the glove box first.

[V8KILR]

There were a bunch of wires wraped in electrical tape goind up the firewall, coming up from the floor, then going up behind the airbag. Also, under the steering column, about 6 inches from the fuse box, with TONS of wires going to it is a black box with an oval red sticker that says 3000BW. Would that be it?

[V8KILR]

Scratch that. The black box is about the same size, not depth, as the ELF. It is about 6-7 inches above the gas petal, and it says BW3000 in the red oval sticker on it. Also, nothing on the back of the glove box.

[V8KILR]

Tom? Are you sure i'm running on an SS.

[V8KILR]

has closer tolerances. I believe this may also make the Lysholm more fragile than the MP62... there is less tolerance for case deflection before a rotor may contact it. Anyway, this internal compression allows the Lysholm to have higher efficiency than the MP62 for boost levels starting at around 13psi and up. From 10-12psi, either supercharger is pretty close... below 10psi the MP62 is a better choice. Also, this internal compression allows the Lysholm to efficiently be able to achieve very high boost levels (up to 25psi). The combination of the ability to run higher boost more efficiently and also its greater displacement, makes the Lysholm 1200 a better choice than the MP62 for max power levels (i.e. built engined) Miatas. They have been shown to make 320rwhp on built 1.9L engines at FM a couple years ago.


Bill
Well, first of all What is case deflection?? Also, I am looking for much higher levels of boost in the future, (on the car im getting in March.)Not too soon, because i have to prove myself, but in the beggining, since i won't have enough for both, i would think of running like 8 psi on the MOAB. Or whatever is safe for a stock engine with 200,000 miles on it. Let me also note that this car was EXTREMELY well cared for by a woman with like 5 boats (built by her and her husband) a dog and LOTS of land And no kids (Therefor, lots of time on her hands, and she was pretty anal about her car running PERFECT). Anyway, What would be safe boost levels for a car like this, with high future power in mind? Later i would make a call to FM and get my engine rebuilt, for what was calculated as like $7000.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Nope. Not at all. I was just making a guess.


Tom? Are you sure i'm running on an SS.

[V8KILR]

O.....well, i doubt that im running over 250 hp on a stock (modified) ECU. Also, i just read a thread on PORTED blowers. You were very...sure that un-ported blowers were better for more hp. Why is that if a ported head is better.