Newbie

[V8KILR]

Hello everyone. My name is Tyler and i bought Zigzags old supercharged miata in may. I am slightly new to the miata scene. I thought that i knew a lot, but after reading some of the threads, i am not even close. So if you guys could help me out.
My first question is what is water injection?

[Wayne-n-Fla]

Water Injection or WI is the injection of a small amount of water or a water methonal mix into the intake manifold to cool the air/fuel mix.
I suggest you go to M net FI section and do the search for "WI"

[V8KILR]

nah. Ive had some bad experiences with a lot of people on the m.net forum, so id like to stay here

[V8KILR]

when i bought the car, I was told it had a 5th injector. Is that WI as you desribed it?

[socal pat]

when i bought the car, I was told it had a 5th injector. Is that WI as you desribed it?
Not really. The 5th fuel injector will have both a fuel line and elecric running to it, not a water line. The WI setup uses a mechanical nozzle (picture a patio mister) not an injector so there will be probably a 1/4" black line with no wiring. If you have WI you will also have a tank and pump in the trunk.

[V8KILR]

where should i look in the engine bay to see the water injector. Do i have to take any thing apart?

[socal pat]

Depends. I know Zigzagn had a 5th injector which will be on the front outboard corner of the intake manifold. If he added WI it could be almost anywhere, pre-blower on the throttle body or post-blower on the side of the intake manifold. Should be easy to spot. Do you have a plastic tank and a pump in the trunk? BTW you must have set a record for an MP62 coldside with 275 horsepower. NOONE else is doing that.

[V8KILR]

Yeah, Yeah, I know, I got harrased by people on miata.net because of saying my car had 275whp, but that is what Mark told me it had when i bought it in may. and at 215whp on a 105 mm pulley, then 275 doesn't seem impossible with the 120mm pulley, if i have WI. Will have to go in tha garage tommorow morning and look for the injector.

[tann3r]

I'd go and look for the WI tank. If is has WI and you have been driving it since May, I can assure you that tank is bone dry.

I'll also join the horde of doubters, sorry. I think a 120:65 pulley ratio on a MP62 is good for 240rwhp and thats being generous. 215whp on the 105 pulley is really strong too, maybe he had it dyno'ed on FM's dyno. But hey, I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong :).

[Serpico]

add me to the list of doubters as well....

If this is the same car, here's a thread about it's dyno results/info.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=156388

My guess is that it's easier to sell a 275whp miata. Sorry to be harse but after you've been on these forums long enough you begin to get a basic knowlege of what amount of boost = what amount of power.

A 275whp Miata will give a Z06 Vette a good run if the Vette driver isn't paying attention.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

There is a good chance that the 5th injector is mounted to the throttle body adaptor between the throttle body and the supercharger. That kit was before we moved it to the intake manifold.

Mark's car made more power with the same pulley because it had the rev limit raised to 8500RPM, I believe. Last I saw/heard, he was at 216 on a 105mm pulley.

[fourwhls]

I guess it is feasible at 8500rpm. Take a look at Tom's 115mm dyno below. If you draw a straight line from 2500 to 6000 and then continue that path up to the 8500 mark, his car would have theoretically put 260ish to the ground.

If you bump up the graph the same amount from the lower line (110mm pulley) to the top line (115mm pulley) and draw a straight line again it would put the line in the 275+ range at 8500rpms.

Yes I printed out this graph and did just as described above.

The only question I have is that Tom's HP curves start to fall after 6000 rpms. Would a free flowing head, more fuel, something? aleviate this and allow the HP to continue on the same path as it was pre 6k rpm?

http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/Dynos/115mmPulley.jpg

[V8KILR]

the engine was completely rebuilt, ported and polished head, forged pistons 9:1, etc. And this thing is also dumping fuel like crazy. I put in a new set of spark plugs as a test, and took them out after an autocross. They were black and burnt looking.

[fourwhls]

I would still like to see a dyno graph from your car. Make a few pulls then change your signature to "a proven XXX whp" rather than "about 275 whp"

Here's a dynojet shop in Ft Myers:

Aftermath Performance
Telephone: 239-939-4649
2940 Hanson St
Ft. Myers, FL 33916
Website:www.aftermathperformance.com

[V8KILR]

WOW!! I just called them and i had no idea. 85 bucks for 3 runs. My dad must have never dynoed his '90 sc because he said it would be like $500. Ill have to make an appt. and get those results right to you guys. Thanks for being such a huge help.
Also, the reason i said "about" is because ive nevre even seen a dyno sheet for this car, none, on any pulley. It's pretty much just his word.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Here is ZigZag's original dyno run. I believe this was a 105mm pulley. This was before all the engine and rev limit work. My recollection is that it then made 216WHP. with the same setup but higher revs (7500 RPM?).

http://www.FastForwardSuperchargers.com/Dynos/ZigZag.jpg

[FormerDatsun510Man]

WOW!! I just called them and i had no idea. 85 bucks for 3 runs. My dad must have never dynoed his '90 sc because he said it would be like $500. Ill have to make an appt. and get those results right to you guys. Thanks for being such a huge help.
Also, the reason i said "about" is because ive nevre even seen a dyno sheet for this car, none, on any pulley. It's pretty much just his word.

Cool! A dyno is a great diagnostic tool too. Any problems will become very evident on the dyno. Also, your dad is kinda of right though that it could cost a lot more than $85. With just three runs you would be pretty limited on any tuning changes you could make and be sure you have them "dialed in". That number of runs is pretty much for verifying an already good running setup that you are not going to be making changes on at the dyno. If you actually get into tuning the car, most shops will charge in the $100-150/hour range (including setup time). 3-5 hours can easily get you over $500. BTDT :biggrin:

Not trying to scare you, but basically it is a situation where one thing can lead to another and you end up with more money in dyno time than you wanted or you have to leave the dyno with the car still not running right. I recommend that you get the car running as close to perfect as you can on the street. Then, hopefully, on the dyno you will have minimal work to do and thus won't use costly time there figuring out things.

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Bill, pretty sure it is running on the JRPC and SS so there is not much to tune.

[V8KILR]

Tom is correct, but i probably wouldn't tune anything. I don't have much cash on my hands and i have a source for the dyno from Mark. The only reason i would dyno would be for me to know exactly how much hp the car has, and a dyno to show you guys and other non-beleivers.No offense

[V8KILR]

Hello again all... I will dig up the dyno charts shortly.....it has been about 8-10 months since I went to the dyno to play. The car started life on a 95mm pulley, went to a 105, then a 110....currently I am running a 120. No ping!I do run 93 aoctane or better only. I did do an ECU mod, to get me to what shows on the tach as 7650 but is really 8300. This is about max without a floating valve. The blower has been ported, the head ported and polish, and gasket matched. I have a 5th injestor preblower....not e-cool.
Nothing post blower....no water injection....nothing....and it still works!


A thread post by zigzag in a conversation about a year ago.

[Scuba Steve]

Tom is correct, but i probably wouldn't tune anything. I don't have much cash on my hands and i have a source for the dyno from Mark. The only reason i would dyno would be for me to know exactly how much hp the car has, and a dyno to show you guys and other non-beleivers.No offense

No offense taken. My advice is you should be going to the dyno to ensure your a/f ratio is correct, not the HP. The HP is merely for bragging, the A/F ratio will determine if your car is going to blow the motor due to bad fueling.

[V8KILR]

i would also like to know what ping sounds like. One time i drove like 5 miles with almost no oil. I think i did some lifter damage, cause every now and then, it sounds like the engine is running on low oil when its not. Is this ping??

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Bill, pretty sure it is running on the JRPC and SS so there is not much to tune.

Uh :), the SS has a full map on it. I have spent over 20 runs on my car on a single dyno day tuning SS maps. Now, hopefully the map is tuned on his SS and the blackened spark plugs is something else. But I am just giving a heads up for him on preparation for the dyno.

Bill

[FormerDatsun510Man]

No offense taken. My advice is you should be going to the dyno to ensure your a/f ratio is correct, not the HP. The HP is merely for bragging, the A/F ratio will determine if your car is going to blow the motor due to bad fueling.

Bingo. That is my point too. Now, since the plugs are blackened on yours at least you are probably on the safe side (way rich). But even way rich can cause problems, such as excess fuel mixing with the oil, blowby, etc. If the fuel maps never were touched since the time the car was running right, then most likely you won't have any tuning to do and rather you will have diagnostics to do to figure out what the culprit is. Is it as simple as spark plug wires? Maybe... maybe not. Step one is to figure out if it is fuel, spark or vacuum leak that is causing the problem. Then procede from there.

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The SS is progammable? :) I meant that Mark probably had it set by now and the JRPC is not adjustable.

It would be another first if that coldside not only made 275 but did it with a JRPC.

[V8KILR]

OMG, i hate to do this after saying it so much, but my father told me of a conversation he had w/ Mark. (Since my dad knew way more about miatas than me. Also the car is legally his. His name is on the title. I'm only 15, and didn't have 9000 bucks layin around), And he said he either said she made 256, or 276. And since i have been here ive been proven wrong by most of you. I cant beleive it, i really don't want to, but my car probably has 256, not 276.

[V8KILR]

Thanks guys. Also what is the SS. Is it the bluish box next to ECU or is that the ELF.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

The ELF is the Blue Box that is shaped like a "D" and controls the main injectors when under boost. It is tunable with 4 pots located in it. The SS stands for Split Second, which is the company that makes the box that controls the extra injector. It is a black box that is a bit bigger than the elf. The SS is good for tuning the fuel curve so that it is smooth at all rpm, because it is tunable based on a MAP (grid of fuel cells for rpm vs. boost). You can tune it to the nearest .5psi and 500rpm. The ELF sets just the basic shape of the curve and is mostly to get the fuel dialed in for 0-5psi. The SS can add fuel anywhere, but generally I have programmed them to start adding fuel in the 2-5psi range. You can use the SS to really fine tune the fuel curve at full throttle.

Bill

[V8KILR]

Where would i find the ss? or is it placed anywhere? It isnt behind the seat with the ECU and ELF.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

It may be in the engine bay. Easiest way is to trace the wires that are connected to the extra injector. The extra injector on your setup is located pre-blower... that is, in the adapter between the throttle body and the supercharger.

Bill

[fourwhls]

Damn....15 years old and Dad buys you a SC'd Miata. It must be nice.

I was sportin' a Pinto station wagon for my 1st car at 16. It even had custom floorboards that allowed for a scenic view of the road below.

I guess it's not that much of a shocker. One of the guys I race with bought his 16 year old a C5 Z06 for his 1st car. The kid has been racing karts since he was 8, so he knows how to control the car. I don't know if thats a good thing or a bad thing.

[V8KILR]

I don't drive it to school. My dad says it WAAAYY to fast for it to be my daily driver. When im old enough, it will be my autocross car, along with his, and ill race my daily driver everynow and then.(94 r-pac.)
But yeah, it's pretty nice. My parents consider me to be a very good driver for my age. Also, ACT XTREME, not the best clutch to learn to drive a stick on. Especially with that much hp and a lightened flywheel. But it was fun, btw your car looks pretty nice in that pic. I was gonna get a yellow from my dads friend, but he was asking $6000, and it was stock.

[V8KILR]

VERY nice. I've always loved yellows, espaecially with the black/chrome lip rims. But for $7000,( i beleive it had 150,000+) NOOO way. Im getting my daily in March. Itll have 199,000 mi, and very well cared for. For $2000. BTW it was 7 not 6.

[V8KILR]

One of the guys I race with bought his 16 year old a C5 Z06 for his 1st car. The kid has been racing karts since he was 8, so he knows how to control the car. I don't know if thats a good thing or a bad thing.
I know a lady at our local autocross who knew a 16 in a ZO6 that was doin like 150 with his girlfreind and hit a tree. Split the car in half and they were both killed instantly.When i have a kid, I would never buy my him a ZO6 espaecially if he is a speed happy as me. No matter how good of a driver he is. When he makes $80,000 TO SPARE, he can have one.

[Mark]

Damn....15 years old and Dad buys you a SC'd Miata. It must be nice.

I hear ya! My first car was a 71 VW Bug with an automatic stick shift. Crazy 3 speed manual transmission, torque converter like an automatic, and a pneumatically controled clutch with and electric spring loaded switch in the shifter. When you grabbed the gear shift to change gears, the little switch would close, which would then close a valve that allowed air to pressurize a bladder to dis-engage the clutch. No pedal on the floor! You could sit at a red light with the car in first gear and the torque converter would suck up all the engine power. Paid $500 for that car and it was a true blast to have. Wish I still had it these days. I'm sure it would be worth more than I paid!

[V8KILR]

I'm not tryin to brag or anything. lol yes its very sweet. Its a very fast car. That bug sounded pretty cool though.:)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

We should start a new thread but my first car was a 47 Plymouth, 3 on the tree and 4 of 6rods knocking. I was 15 and paid for it myself. Rebuilt the engine with a Craftsman 1/4" drive an 2' pipe. ;) The shop came to my house and turned the crank in the engine, in the car. Housecalls. Bet they don't do that anymore. :)

[Mark]

Anything I can do to a car can be blamed/attributed to that VW. We got to where we could pull the engine in about 15 minutes! Four main bolts to the tranny, a gas connection, a few electrical connections, and the accelerator cable. Pull the engine straight back and it dropped to the ground. Then 2 of us would literally pick up the back of the car and roll it forward. We sure learned a lot!!!