Why the PC Pro is the best EMS...

[chuckerants]

For ME!

I don't want to spend day after day tuning my car. I not only don't have the time to tune the car, but I don't WANT TO!

I don't want to spend the time it takes for me to learn ANOTHER software system. I have enough problems with Microsoft products at work.

I don't want to have to put the car back together every couple of years so I can pass emissions. I still need the OBD2 connection.

Is the PC Pro the best EMS in the world? No, absolutely not. There are lots of EMS that are a lot more ROBUST aka that does more things that would squeeze every little HP out of my car. However, that's not what I want.

I want a simple, easy to use and adjust EMS that is easy to install and live with. The PC Pro is all that PERIOD.

The bottom line is, the PC Pro is the best EMS for me. Is the PC Pro the best EMS for everyone? Only if you have the same needs as I do.

To say that everyone needs a full stand alone EMS is just plain ignorant and insulting. To think that you know what's best for me is just idiotic.

[ScottA]

I have to agree with you on the PC-Pro system. It is simple to operate , Plug and Play, and it plain:yes: works. Just my 2 cents. I have one and use it.

[socal pat]

Of course anyone with an open mind would agree with this. It's just not as much fun as hurling childish insults or even threats of physical assault like some folks are prone to do. I was once told via PM that debating with some people is useless. I now give up defending our choice in FI mods. I'll just go along and enjoy owning a simple dependable system.

[chuckerants]

We PC Pro users and FFS owners have been accused of being ignorant at best and simply stupid because we think what we have is the best for US.

We simply acknowledge that a full stand alone is just not what we want. Yet WE are accused of being ignorant. Sheesh.

[socal pat]

No big surprise that the Mnet thread re:blown engines was populated by Links and other full ECU's. In the end (BIG SURPRISE) it was tuning, or lack of, that blew motors and NOT which system you run.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, the PC-Pro is best for MY customers for the simple reasons that you mention. I don't recall EVER saying that it was better than any other EM. Why it is better falls into just a few simple items.

CARB - There are NO FULL ECUs that I am aware of that can be CARB approved.
Emissions in states OTHER than CA - A lot of states are now doing emissions on 96+ vehicles by plugging into the OBD2 port and looking to see if A) the rediness indicators are set; and B) that there are no CELs. Again, there are no FULL ECUs that I know of that can pass those tests. A lot more states are headed that way in the not too distant future. Ben91, who promotes the Megasquirt so heavily, says over and over that a full ECU is the ONLY way to go. Piggybacks just don't hack it. Then, when someone mentions OBD2 and CARB, the answer is (Paraphrased) 'well, you can use the MS in piggyback mode'.
95% of the kits we ship are installed and run. A few need tweaking of A/F. I would also venture to say that 90% or more of my customers are simply looking for a daily driver that drives like stock off boost and goes like the wind on boost with no feeling of transition from one to the other. The PC-Pro does that and does it well.Does that mean it is the BEST controller on the market? Absolutely not. Does that mean the the Mega Squirt, Link, AEM, etc are better. Absolutely not, for my application and my customers needs. When the driveability is near perfect and the A/F is stable and the price is where it is and the WHP is in the realm of what we sell it at, what more could you ask for?

[Race Grandpa]

I really wonder if it does any good to defend it and E Cool.

It seems to be the same old people are beating them up.

Maybe just a short version of the above statements of fact and why it is best for "me.". And state that "I" will no longer debate the issue in this thread. "Call me if you have any questions"

God I wish I had never started the thread on why I lost 2 engines with the FFS - I bet some did not read the second sentence where I stated that all of it had to do with tuning.

Sorry about that Tom.

[V8KILR]

For ME!

I don't want to spend day after day tuning my car. I not only don't have the time to tune the car, but I don't WANT TO!

I don't want to spend the time it takes for me to learn ANOTHER software system. I have enough problems with Microsoft products at work.

I don't want to have to put the car back together every couple of years so I can pass emissions. I still need the OBD2 connection.

Is the PC Pro the best EMS in the world? No, absolutely not. There are lots of EMS that are a lot more ROBUST aka that does more things that would squeeze every little HP out of my car. However, that's not what I want.

I want a simple, easy to use and adjust EMS that is easy to install and live with. The PC Pro is all that PERIOD.

The bottom line is, the PC Pro is the best EMS for me. Is the PC Pro the best EMS for everyone? Only if you have the same needs as I do.

To say that everyone needs a full stand alone EMS is just plain ignorant and insulting. To think that you know what's best for me is just idiotic.

Chuckerants,

I think you need to post EXACTLY this on Mnet. Even though you will probably still get ridiculous comments on it, at least people will know what your all about instead of trying to get your point across while defending people, just do it to explain your reasoning and then check up on it in a couple of days to see what people said. What they say will probably upset you, so I wouldn'y reply.

[socal pat]

Over the last year or so both Chuck and I have tried every possible approach. Calm, informative, and fair. Heated and passionate. We have even on occasion been sucked into their game. If you have ever visited their home forum you know that part of their fun in life is to ridicule others. When someone like Chuck posts ANYTHING pro-FFS you can go to their forum and watch for a "Come on and join the fun!" Thread to start. The arguing is getting old for everyone. Gary is closing down threads, other posters are saying "yah, yah, yah get over it". Mnet is becomming more like the Honda forums everyday.

[V8KILR]

And that really sucks. I got into an argument with like 8 of those guys and my dad got ad at me. He said" We may need them someday if we have a problem," but after reading stuff there, and then reading stuff here, he won't even go to Mnet, except to look in the classifieds.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Computer discussion moved here http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12075

;)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

And you have no idea how much I appreciate it. No need for anybody to denegratethemselves and post there ever again unless it is repaired.


Over the last year or so both Chuck and I have tried every possible approach. Calm, informative, and fair. Heated and passionate. We have even on occasion been sucked into their game. If you have ever visited their home forum you know that part of their fun in life is to ridicule others. When someone like Chuck posts ANYTHING pro-FFS you can go to their forum and watch for a "Come on and join the fun!" Thread to start. The arguing is getting old for everyone. Gary is closing down threads, other posters are saying "yah, yah, yah get over it". Mnet is becomming more like the Honda forums everyday.

[V8KILR]

No need for anybody to denegratethemselves and post there ever again unless it is repaired.
Yup, I completely agree.

[chuckerants]

Over the last year or so both Chuck and I have tried every possible approach. Calm, informative, and fair. Heated and passionate. We have even on occasion been sucked into their game. If you have ever visited their home forum you know that part of their fun in life is to ridicule others. When someone like Chuck posts ANYTHING pro-FFS you can go to their forum and watch for a "Come on and join the fun!" Thread to start. The arguing is getting old for everyone. Gary is closing down threads, other posters are saying "yah, yah, yah get over it". Mnet is becomming more like the Honda forums everyday.

I was hanging around on the turbo forums because I really wanted to know more about turbos, but after all the crap threads that say, "Of look, let's make fun of PC Pro and Tom", I'm done over there. I even deleted my link.

As for defending Tom/FFS/PC Pro at M.Net, as you can see from my recent postings, I've given up directly acknowledging the "usual suspects" at all.

Also, I did post on M.Net about the PC Pro and the thread didn't last very long.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=264652

[MiataMTF]

It's no use posting such threads at M.net, there's too much resistance to new ideas. Such arrogance and ignorance seem to be prevalent. These attitudes regarding product superiority (or inferiority) resulted in failure of the American auto industry in the 70's, failure of IBM and mainframe computers in the 80's, as well as the meltdown of Apple in the 90's ... the list goes on.

I researched nearly every computer on the market (two years ago) and I initially decided on using an XEDE-based system but the price got in the way. When I looked at the PC-Pro, it met every need for my modified JRSC and the literal 15-minute installation made every other system look foolish. I used to install custom audio systems (I spent over 30 hours on my personal car) so I appreciate an easy high quality installation. And, with Tom's free-trial offer I figured "why not". Now I am a satisfied customer.

If I outgrow the PC-Pro, I'll have to re-evaluate the XEDE although I too am interested in the possibilities of the MS for my NB; however, I can't CARB it, it's no good to me. One must note that it's a major challenge to make big power on an OBD2 car and still be able to pass CA smog checks. I went that way 15 years ago and I have to say that I will never have a non-CARB'd car again. From reading descriptions of the many turbo owners in CA, it's evident that most aren't CARB'd, at least not legally.

Hopefully, newbies looking for an SC will find Tom's site and explore this forum for information.
I for one would hate to see FFS lose business or restrict service because of lost market share. It might be worthwhile for FFS' satisfied customers to start a network to welcome interested parties. I already take interested parties for rides and they are mostly amazed at what an SC does to the normally anemic Miata. I'm putting out between 170-190whp from my modified JRSC and I can't wait to see what's possible with a FFS Hotside.

The only real downside of the FFS kit is that the power delivery is so smooth that it FEELS different from a comparable turbocharged car, less capable even though it has similar max power output. You can post dyno plots all day long but you'll never sell the low-end torque delivery as an asset (the turbo crowd wants the boost-response at the mid-range, they think it's "cool").

Unfortunately, the last is similar to the problem that Mazda faced with the FD RX-7 in 1993 - even though the power-to-weight ratio and performance were better than the other sports cars, it couldn't win the marketing wars. In other words, why would anyone buy a 250bhp RX-7 when Toyota, Nissan and Mitsubishi all offered 320+ horsepower cars.