MP62 Hotside R4 - 240rwhp/195ft-lb

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Well, as the title suggests, I just dynoed my MP62 Hotside R4 today and made ~ 240rwhp and 195ft-lb on a Dynojet. These are corrected values. The actual was ~ 255rwhp!!! Dyno sheet showing the final run along with two earlier runs attached. This is a good illustration of tuning. You will notice that my last run actually had the lowest of the three outputs, but the important thing is to note that the reason for that are spikes on the graph rather than it actually making lower output. If you look at the overall curve it actually has the highest output and the smoothest a/f curve. When I tune I always focus on getting a consistent a/f ratio along with making sure there is no ping. On this setup I can run the factory timing curve with no retard needed.

Some other interesting things I found in my testing today was that the Moss style outlet manifold gave me 5rwhp and 4ft-lb over using the older BRP outlet manifold. I also tested a foam filter vs. the K&N and found the foam filter lost 8rwhp... put the K&N back on! Also tested stock plug wires vs. Magnacore... no difference in output!

The specs for the setup:

MP62 Hotside
PC Pro Engine Management for main injectors
Split Sec Engine Management for extra injectors
FFS Outlet Manifold
BBK 70mm Throttle Body with BRP adapter
BRP 6-rib belt drive
FFS 130/65 pulleys - 13psi peak boost at redline
BRP R4 Air/Air Intercooler
BRP R4 Intake Manifold with 4 x 270cc extra injectors
JR 4-2-1 Header
Roadstersport 2.5" Exhaust
ACT HD Clutch
FM 9lb Flywheel

I am extremely pleased with the setup and it drives absolutely smooth as silk with superb throttle response! One of the shop technicians drove my car and he was very impressed and commented on the outstanding throttle response and driveability! He was also very impressed with the wicked acceleration. The shop deals mostly with severly souped up V8s, so I was quite surprised to hear these compliments!

Tom, I wanted to thank you for all of your help. The PC Pro has really made this setup drive and perform better than ever!

Bill

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Well due to the aggravation of tiny attached image size and 10 minute post edit limit, I will post again here links to actually legible dyno runs :)

http://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=56912

http://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=56913

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Absolutely awesome. You just have to love those numbers with perfect driveability.

For those of you who don't know, Bill is BELOW sealevel (hope you don't drown). :) That means that his "correction factors" typically subtract. Especially on a nice day. For example, if you were at 5000 feet, you might have actual 200 and 'corrected' 240 as the correction factor is about 20%. For him it is actual 255 and corrected 240.

Those curves lay one right on top of the other. Awesome repeatability.

Bill, I keep hearing that with the A/A IC, you will have sever idle droop and stalling. Do you have that problem?

Is that WHP and CTq? J/K

[FormerDatsun510Man]

I have no problem with idle droop or stalling. The PC Pro was the final thing that corrected that. I found that a lot of it had to do with the improper handling of transition in and out of boost by the prior engine management setups I used. Also, equally important the R4 manifold improved driveability and throttle response due to its smaller throttled volume. Basically, it brings the throttled volume near to a non-intercooled Hotside. Really the key to a good driving supercharged setup, IMHO, is good engine management and low throttled volume. The combination rocks!!!

Actually, semi-seriously :), this setup would be rated around 270hp at the flywheel! That would be a pretty cool model for Mazda to offer :) :) :)

Come to think of it, that is the same output as the Mazdaspeed 6, which is a turbocharged 2.2L!!!

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Ditto the transition point. I think the PC-Pro TPS control over LTFT and STFT (Long term and Short Term Fuel Trim) immensly effects the return to idle. On most of the other systems (especially those with O2 clamps), LTFT drifts way off and that is what is used when you lift and return to idle. That throws the idle fuel target off. I thought yours was OK but was curious.

[99mx5]

Awesome numbers Bill! What do your A/F plots look like?

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Thanks Ari! I couldn't have done it without the improvements made to the efficiency with the FFS parts. With this same pulley ratio and the same 13psi peak, it made 221rwhp and 187ft-lb best run corrected with my older setup. There is a marked improvement in efficiency.

I have the A/F plots on the bottom half of the dyno run here:

http://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=56915

Bill

[Serpico]

That's a sweet looking dyno chart. Nice job!!!!

Did you monitor your timing or the knock sensor while on the dyno or were you going by the lack of audible pinging? I'm just wondering if the knock sensor heard anything (other than the screaming sc....:) ).

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Knock is something I am particularly careful about. Not only is there no audible knock, but there is no sign of the factory ECU pulling timing. I monitored this by watching the timing with my scan tool attached and it is staying where it should (~24 deg BTDC at WOT). I also have checked this on the road as the loads are higher there and knock is more likely.

In fact, my goal with this setup was to make 220-240rwhp with the least chance of having any issues with knock. That is why I went with 9:1 pistons in the rebuilt engine, R4 manifold and big Air/Air IC. Good engine management doesn't hurt either :) Being a born PulleyBoy, I knew I was going to have to run the biggest pulley that is safe (130mm) so I picked the components for the system around that.

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Timing is what we watch on the dyno as well to tell if we have knock. With the Scan-Gauge, I watch that on the street as well. Sadly it reports the timing before the timing card so I don't get the actual timing but it does drop if there is knock.

That 150mm pulley is still around here somewhere. :)

[Satisaii]

Do you have any pictures of your set-up? I have an almost identical system in my car, with the biggest difference being a home made cold air intake. I have just finished the install of the R4 manifold, and I am hoping to dyno sometime next month. I am using a single injector with the Split Second controller, FWIW.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Actually, it is probably better that it shows the timing that the stock ECU "thinks" is occurring. This way you can more easily see when the stock ECU is pulley timing for knock. In other words, if it drops below ~24 deg you know you have a problem and can simply mess with the timing retard settings until it holds it back up to 24 deg. If you saw the actual timing it may get confusing as you see the timing "retard" as you increase the timing retard, and yet you aren't quite as sure when the stock ECU is doing retard also. This may further get more complicated to remember when you are driving and trying to watch and figure this out at the same time.

Bill

[FormerDatsun510Man]

I will get some better pics soon, but I have some pics of my car from just prior going to the full blown 4 extra injector setup here:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/132197

The only difference now is that I am running 4 exta injectors in the R4 manifold.

Bill

[Serpico]

Knock is something I am particularly careful about. Not only is there no audible knock, but there is no sign of the factory ECU pulling timing. I monitored this by watching the timing with my scan tool attached and it is staying where it should (~24 deg BTDC at WOT). I also have checked this on the road as the loads are higher there and knock is more likely.



Bill


That's great Bill! Thanks for the info and congrats on reaching your goal!!!!!

[Satisaii]

Much prettier than mine. Once I finish I will put some pictures up.

Did you do anything to the fuel pump system?

I have Sam's green car (if you knew him), but I have made many changes in the last year.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Yes, I believe I remember Sam's car. If I recall correctly, he pulled a lot of weight off of it... that should help a lot :).

There are some new pics of my car in the Miata thread:

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?p=2901270#post2901270

And also on my Car Domain page here:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/132197

As far as the fuel system goes I am running the Walbro 255 HP. I learned early on the problem with trying to run the stock fuel pump with over 200rwhp :).

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Was Sam's car the one they took the 'drifting' video of in the parking lot in front of the shop?


Much prettier than mine. Once I finish I will put some pictures up.

Did you do anything to the fuel pump system?

I have Sam's green car (if you knew him), but I have made many changes in the last year.

[Satisaii]

Yeah, I have a copy of that video. That is the reason it has a 94 block.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

That was an amazing video. First time I actually saw a piston exit the side of a block in living color.

Kind of made me think that intercoolers are not the best idea for drifting.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Actually, that was the problem of running a 140 crank pulley with engine management that still needed work on a stock engine. Spinning the car in endless donuts didn't help either...

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Just needed a PC-Pro? :)

A/A ICs also need forward motion to cool the air. My guess is that his intake air was probably pretty hot. I would suggest an alternative cooling method, but I won't. :)

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Actually, he was running an extra injector I believe. But I do agree better EM would have definitely helped matters. However, I am not sure if any car can reliably handle 5 minutes of donuts at WOT LOL

It really needed a dummy cut off switch... either that or the dummy behind the wheel should have done a behavior switch LOL.

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I'll bet a lot of people would like to watch what we are talking about. Is it on the web still? Could we put it up here? It was a cool video.


Yeah, I have a copy of that video. That is the reason it has a 94 block.

[Satisaii]

I just sent it to you in an e-mail.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

How big is the file? My file limit is 5MB. Funny, I have my own email server and I am still limited. :(

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Bill,

Didn't work?

[FormerDatsun510Man]

I was seeing if I could attach the dyno run image again, but the resolution is still very low.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

If it is a DynoJet file, send me the file and I can do it.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Here is the final dyno run attached. Just rename the file extension to .drf
If you don't mind :), for the dyno graph show hp and torque vs. engine rpm. Also show the a/f ratio

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I'll do it the hard way and figure out the thumbnail problem after dinner. :)

http://www.FastForwardSuperchargers.com/Dynos/Bill-240WHP.jpg

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Testing the fix for JPG uploads. Good picture of what good fuel tuning can do. 12WHP increase. Not too shabby.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It works!!!!!!!!!!!

[gludlow]

Looks good!

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Thanks all! I am a firm believer in tuning the setup on the dyno. Every time I have gone I usually gain somewhere in the order of 10-20rwhp :). I was surprised even tuning it beforehand with my wideband on the street there still was pretty healthy gain at the dyno.

Bill

[gludlow]

I wish I had gotten the A/F off my dyno run, even as corrupted as it was. I suspect I'm running 10 or less like your first run, so I might see a good gain once I get my tuning right.

Great job! :cheers2:

[FormerDatsun510Man]

It has been a while since the dyno runs, but I decided to show the effect of a couple different things I tested. The first attachment compares the Moss/FFS outlet manifold to the original BRP style. Nice gain there all across the rpm! I was surprised it made a pretty nice impact even at low rpm. The second attachment compares the K&N to the foam filter. I was surprised that it turns out that the foam filter was very restrictive! Note that I didn't change the tuning at all for these tests, so the changes in a/f ratio reflect the changes in airflow. Notice how the air went way rich at very high rpm with the foam filter. I think the foam filter was bottlenecking at that point. The filter was of the same external dimensions as the K&N.

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Which was on the car with the outlet manifold? The K&N or the foam filter?

[FormerDatsun510Man]

The K&N filter was in place when I had the BRP outlet manifold on. I isolated the variables by testing only one change at a time.

In other words, if I had used both the foam filter and the BRP outlet manifold, I probably would have seen a drop of 10-15rwhp.

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

That speaks volumes about the outlet manifold from Moss. :)

[MikeyLikesIt]

Is anybody still making the R4 Manifold?

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Stage One Tuning still makes them last time I checked. They make the supercharger kit parts for Flyin' Miata. Used to be the supplier for BR Performance Hotside kits.

Bill