How come I only have 202 HP Tom?

[chuckerants]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=188337

<Oh boy, oh boy, is this great!> In my best Flounder imitation. :D

Thanks Tom.

[Dr Evol]

Never mind the PM I sent you a few minutes ago - Nice numbers!!!!

Chip

[chuckerants]

Thanks.

I'd like to see someone on Miata.net poo-poo those numbers. lol

[Dr Evol]

You probably won't have to wait long!

I try not to post anything there, I'd rather swim with the sharks in the ocean :shock:

[socal pat]

I pretty much bet that the M.net crowd will give BRP the credit for providing the basis for your system. They just have such a hard time giving Tom his due for his ideas. I guess you can't be a fine theorist and "abrasive" at the same time. :roll:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Aren't too many kits out there making 202 on AZ91 in 112F heat non-intercooled (well, E-Cooled :)). Sure sounded sweet on the dyno. Or, as the onlooker said, "Sounded Fast". :)

[chuckerants]

BTW, all the way home I had the AC cranked up to 4/4 and though I didn't go WOT, I was able to accelerate enough to pass anyone I needed to WITHOUT pinging or even the hint of a tinkle. TAKE THAT! :lol:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Awesome.

[Dr Evol]

:lol:

[Ronin]

Congrats on the dyno results!

Question on ping when A/C is on and then going WOT: I read somewhere on M.net that the ECU turns off the A/C compressor when going WOT, so why would you get ping in that case?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The problem with the AC is that it super heats the radiator and allows the engine to get real hot. Especially out here in 112F and higher heat. When you put your foot to the floor, the ECU drops out the AC compressor for two reasons. First, to keep from spinning the compressor too fast and wearing it out and secone, to reduce the load on the engine to give more HP to pass. But the heat has already soaked the radiator and the engine is already very hot. That is why he made 172 (174?) WHP in California and had no problem with ping. But, when he moved here, he couldn't get it above 5000 RPM without serious knock. E-cool not only cured that but allowed him to go from 172WHP to 202WHP and still have no ping.

Sometimes you can have ping and not know it because the knock sensor has picked it up and pulled timing to cure it and you never even hear anything. However, we monitored his timing and it was right where it belongs so that wasn't happening either. On that point, he is running stock timing with no retard.

[99mx5]

ONLY 202??? What a shame Chuck..... ;)
Congrats on the results, now go burn some rubber! :)

[chuckerants]

ONLY 202??? What a shame Chuck..... ;)
Congrats on the results, now go burn some rubber! :)

Funny you should mention burning rubber. Brent, the dyno operator was laughing at me cuz I couldn't get the car to engage smoothly at the new power levels on the dyno.

When I got to the dyno, the first run showed me at 183HP and my butt dyno told me it felt really strong on the streets. Then at 200+HP, I just wasn't used to launching the car yet. lol

[Banshee]

Congrats,

So you gain 14 whp by going with bigger pulley and new midpipe? Is it a goodwin?

[chuckerants]

Congrats,

So you gain 14 whp by going with bigger pulley and new midpipe? Is it a goodwin?

No, I found it was much easier (and cheaper) to just hollow out the pre-cat. Also, with the 105mm pulley, it was upto 188HP but was pinging a little bit. So that's when we hollowed out the pre-cat thinking it was plugged a little.

After that, since we gained more flow through the exhaust, we lost 5HP - 183HP the 1st run with no cats at all. Then we added more fuel then we thought, WTH and added the 110mm pulley and voile!

[chuckerants]

There doesn't seem to be too many (actually none) poo-pooing by the usual naysayers on M.Net. Hmm. :P

[pat conlon]

Ha!

J Man must be on vacation.

Congrats Tom and Chuck!

Pat Conlon, Palm Desert, Ca @ 115* today :shock:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Vacation's over. :(

[socal pat]

Yup!......and just as I predicted he gives BRP the credit and Tom the... uh....hmmmm well, nothing. After my little visit in a couple of weeks I expect to be dynoing at around 210 (save a 110 pulley for me Tom). Maybe he can find a way to credit BRP for a 210rwhp coldside with only E-cool.....we'll see. :roll:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

No 110s for you. 115 or nothing. ;) LOL

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Chip got his 120mm pulley today. I think his WHP might just pass mine for a couple days until I get the rest of the 120mm pulleys. But, I have a 126mm pulley sitting there just begging to be installed. I had it on the prototype coldside kit and made 225WHP with it. On "pump" gas too. ;) That best run is really about 177 FT-LBS not 193 as shown. The error is due to the blip in the graph.

Chip, this is your goal.

http://www.FastForwardSuperchargers.com/Dynos/Tom-99-126mm.jpg

[Dr Evol]

Not a problem!!! As soon as I get back from vacation the 120 will go on and I will head for the Dyno. I should have the dyno runs to post around mid-July.

[Kyp J]

Tom

When you jump up in pulley sizes, do you adjust the SS tables for the e-cool to maintain the A/F ratios and if so, have you figured out a predetermined value for each step? The A/F on those runs just posted look crazy flat.

Also, the question on Mnet about belt slippage and how to correct it is me. (stock01. I haven't figured out how to change it since I'm not stock any more).

[chuckerants]

Tom

When you jump up in pulley sizes, do you adjust the SS tables for the e-cool to maintain the A/F ratios and if so, have you figured out a predetermined value for each step? The A/F on those runs just posted look crazy flat.

Also, the question on Mnet about belt slippage and how to correct it is me. (stock01. I haven't figured out how to change it since I'm not stock any more).

Yup, when you increase boost, you need to readjust the fuel MAP to compensate for more air.

I'm sure with the number of dyno runs Tom has done with different cars that he has a SS MAP for you to use. However, that should just be a starting point. You should adjust the MAP to fit your car on the dyno. (Did I get that right Tom?)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Tom

When you jump up in pulley sizes, do you adjust the SS tables for the e-cool to maintain the A/F ratios and if so, have you figured out a predetermined value for each step? The A/F on those runs just posted look crazy flat.

Also, the question on Mnet about belt slippage and how to correct it is me. (stock01. I haven't figured out how to change it since I'm not stock any more).

Yes, you will have to adjust the map somewhat when you install a larger pulley. But, most of the extra fuel will happen naturally as the new pulley moves the RPM/Boost relationship and the map compensates. So the answer is yes and no.

I would like to defer the answer to the belt slippage until tomorrow when I can confirm. But it appears there is a flaw in the design that allows the belt to slip no matter how tight you get the manual adjuster. Rather than delve into the theoretical, I will have a real answer tomorrow. It may be that there is a simple fix to the BRP hotside belt problem.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Kyp. The belt slippage does not apply to you. That is a hotside problem.

[Kyp J]

Good. I was worried it was with an auto tensioner and had exceeded it's capabilities to keep up. I don't know if I am going to get into the "pushing the limit" game at least for awhile. I'd like to get over the trauma of this blown engine thing first.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yep, you caught me off gaurd with the question. I'm not sure anymore who has what. It was bad enough when it was all coldsides. Then I only had to keep track of who had a early version and who had a e-cool version. Now, with the hotsides, I have to stop and think harder before some of the replies. On all of the coldside, I supplied the SC pulley. On the first systems, BRP supplied the crank pulley if it was aluminum color and I supplied it if it was black. Not sure, yet, if the coldside has a problem or not but will know tomorrow. If it does, I will gladly supply new crank pulleys to any of the first 24 who has the problem. I will have a definitive answer this time tomorrow. BUT, at the moment, I think it is strictly a hotside problem.

Old age is not bad, it is just that senior moments happen more frequently. ;)

[Dr Evol]

I'm not sure you really need to adjust the fuel maps much as you change pulley sizes. It's all the same really, boost at a specific rpm equals a set amount of additional fuel already established in the fuel map. I will start with my rich 115 map on the 120 to see if I need to add any additioanl fuel. If not, I will try out my lean 115 map to how that works. I'm sure I will try small tweeks to the map to get the A/F closer to perfect.

[Kyp J]

The only place anywhere near here with a dyno, doesn't do the A/F chart. They use the dyno for after market parts development and only care about bottom line torque/hp and only do dynos as a favor to the local racers. I will have to watch the wideband and take notes if I ever get to the dyno here. That might make it hard to do accurate tuning. It might be more accurate to just use someone elses numbers based on a couple of comparable benchmarks (start, middle, finish) and hope for the best.

How much do the dynos cost per hour where most people get them done? They charge $75/hr at the place mentioned. (About 40 miles away)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Around here it is $100-$125 per hour. I get better rates but I think that is because I pay their rent., lights, cooling, etc every month. :) I have a lot of hours on that dyno.

[Kyp J]

Unfortunately my moving to Texas will probably occur before I get around to trying to perfect tuning. It is 260 miles further from San Antonio to PHX than from Reno. That's over 2 hours! If the San Antonio deal my wife is working on falls thru, we are thinking of going down there to visit her brother (Ha! it will be to get the car in your clutches for some tuning. For money, if I can afford it.)

The machine shop waited until putting the engine together to discover he didn't have all the needed seal, gaskets, etc. Should have picked it up yesterday. He is probably used to customers that know what they are doing. Looking at the work done so far, they seem to do good work. The intake and exhaust ports were opened up but I don't remember what it looked like before. Looks factory, but better.

[Dr Evol]

I pay $80 an hour, but I usually get an hour and a half at least. They are not real strick on sticking to the hour but more on helping you get to where you want to be in your fuel maps or additional HP and TQ.

[Banshee]

The place I go to charges $60 for 3 runs, or $240 for 4 hours.