JRPC Out. PCPRO on it's way in

[down_hill_dog]

Thanks for the help Tom. As you said on the phone my PCPRO is in Kelowna now, 5 days after you shipped.

I took out my JRPC today, and it is now rendered a kitty toy. I do have a tuner cat afterall.

My question is, i know there were different interchangeable chips for these things... The chip thats in it reads 244A. Anyone know what this relates to?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/down_hill_dog2/IMG_0146.jpg

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

There was a +10% chip and a +17% chip. They were specifically marked as such. Otherwise it was stock.

[down_hill_dog]

All went well. That is an impressive harness you've built. I hid the PC Pro away in the glovebox.

After installing it and going for my first drive, I did notice that I still have a fair bit of ping. The driveability is unreal though, It is a whole new car I swear.

I'm going to try adjusting the WHOLE fuel curve just a little richer or leaner to cure the ping. And the water shot glass treatment will happen right quick here too.

[down_hill_dog]

It seems no matter how rich or lean the fuel curve goes. Ping does not end. and this is with the J&S at 12 oclock on each setting which should be MORE than enough for my stock pullies.

Maybe my car is just a lemon? 94 octane, no cat, 180* thermo, stock 6.5 psi pullies and 5*C ambient temp and it is AUDIBLE. 5 degrees celcius is cool enough to warrant no ping with the J&S off. Even with Coolingmist WI, it was audible. I'm still on a 4 rib setup, because so what, even if there is belt slip it still pings like crazy. I don't have a wideband, and i'm waiting to borrow one so i can achieve around a 12.5/13-1 AFR throughout the entire rpm range. But at either full rich or full lean and everywhere in between it pings just the same. everything has been done that is needed to run this setup properly. A larger rad and fans wired to be on ALL the time is next, as i attribute alot of it to be heat related. but thats just my opinion, and other dont seem to have this problem in places like texas or socal where it is crazy hot compared to here.

Sometimes I wish it'd just blow up so i could LS1 it. Sorry, i'm having a really bad night.

[down_hill_dog]

in all fairness, it did straighten out alot of my driveability issues. the car drives much better than it ever has. but i just cant shake this case of detonation. If i tune the J&S low enough to get rid of it, the car might aswell be a stock 1.8 with I/H/E and Cams. It has pulled a 205 on a dynojet before, and 185 on a mustang. but with large amounts of ping.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Couple questions:

1. Where are you getting the ping?

2. What sparkplugs are you running?

We found that 2* retard above 5000 RPM would kill any ping even on the worst 91 octane fuel. With the setting you said, I think you are pulling 1*/lb boost. That should be enough to negate the added power from the blower. We use BKR8EIX spark plugs to kill the pre-ignition. If it is pre-ignition, timing retard just doesn't help. You also probably have a lot of carbon build up on the pistons from the PC. You probably need to run some water through it to clean the carbon. Carbon is also a good source of pre-ignition.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

A few disjointed notes:

1) The 4-rib isn't causing slipping problems at the boost level you are running. The weakness with the 4-rib is once you try running, say much more than 10psi of boost, you have to overtension the belt to prevent slip. I ran a 4-rib pulley on my setup when it dynoed 221rwhp and 187ft-lb. That was with the same pulley ratio it has now (130/65) and it made the same 13psi peak boost as it is making now, so I know it wasn't slipping. However, I had to tension the belt so much that I would wear out the idle tensionser pulleys in short order and I went through a lot of belts. With the 6-rib auto tensioner setup I have been running the same belt for over a year now with no issues. At your lower boost level, if you aren't having belt problems, I wouldn't worry about it :).

2) I know Tom was probably joking :biggrin:, but pulling 1* per psi boost won't kill the added power. Actually 1* per psi is the standard starting point for boosted setups. Back in the pre R4 days on my setup, I would usually end up around .5* per psi when it was tuned just right. From what I saw on the dyno, you would lose around 2rwhp per deg of timing retard... roughly. That seemed to hold true between 0-7 deg total retard at least... I didn't pull any more than that. Though right when my engine was on its way out I did go as high as a bit over 10 deg total retard. Now, that took a hit on power I could feel LOL, but I didn't bother dynoing the engine to find out. Was just trying to hold it together until I got engine #2 in there.

3) What model year Miata are you running? The '01+ can have quite an issue with pinging if things are not setup just right. I hate VVT :).

Bill

[down_hill_dog]

Tom, More so in third gear and upwards. from 4000 rpm to redline. It does it especially bad from third to the sudden load in fourth.

I've always ran 8eix's from the time I got the car.

As for the water, two large shot glasses went through it before it went for it's first pc pro run.

And for refernce it is a cdn 01.

[Serpico]

down_hill_dog,

If you are using the J&S Ultra then setting all the knobs at 12:00 means that the boost retard is not starting until about 5psi (too late IMHO). I have mine starting much earlier (1-2 psi) and have no audible or visual (knock gauge) detonation.

Start- 9:00
Rate-12:00
Sensitivity- 2:00

This is with 115/65 pulleys and a BRP small A/A intercooler making about 9psi at redline.

Where is your water injection nozzle located?

Also, if you don't know what your A/F ratio really is then you need to find out asap.

[down_hill_dog]

Thanks for the info on the J&S. I have limited experience with the unit, and it would be good to get a handle of what to do with it.

I'm at around 6.5 psi, and i've taken the water injection off because it kept failing on me.

I do plan on getting my AFR down so that I can adjust the J&S to suit.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Sorry. I was thinking it was the BTC. The knob for it is 0.1*/click and 12:00 is 1*/lb.

On the Coldside kit I was pulling 2* above 5000RPM to run 10PSI on 91 octane in Arizona heat with the A/C running. Not 2*/lb, but simply 2*. You should not have to pull 7* at 7PSI (1*/1#) to stop ping in your temps with your fuel.

I still think something is wrong. With the PC-Pro, are you getting around 12:1? The 01-05 will ping if they are too rich. Believe it or not. They like to be ~13-12 below 3500-4000 and no richer than 12 above 4000.

[down_hill_dog]

see.. i don't have a wideband. where i really should, hence why i was asking about the innovate lc-1 the first time. Well i think for now, I am going to try and bring the PC PRO back to stock settings you shipped it with. and get a handle on my J&S settings before I get carried away with the PC pro without use of a wideband.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Just don't push it until you get it resolved or you may be closer to that LS1 than you want.

[down_hill_dog]

well it is a surefure way to make serious power.. thats forsure. lol

conservative is all i'm looking for, it is the reliability and driveability that is key. part of that is zero ping.

[down_hill_dog]

down_hill_dog,

If you are using the J&S Ultra then setting all the knobs at 12:00 means that the boost retard is not starting until about 5psi (too late IMHO). I have mine starting much earlier (1-2 psi) and have no audible or visual (knock gauge) detonation.

Start- 9:00
Rate-12:00
Sensitivity- 2:00

This is with 115/65 pulleys and a BRP small A/A intercooler making about 9psi at redline.

Where is your water injection nozzle located?

Also, if you don't know what your A/F ratio really is then you need to find out asap.

Anyone else have a setup that is closer to mine care to share some hints?

01 BRP hotside,
'vvt tweak'
J&S ultra safeguard
PC pro
stock 4 rib pullies
Supercharger heat blanket, manifold blanket
180* thermostat, stock rad.

[Serpico]

down_hill_dog,

Did you ever get the A/A intercooler fabbed or are you running non-intercooled now?

Stock Fuel Pump?

Fifth injector?

[down_hill_dog]

As stated above Serpico, shes pretty well stock. I don't plan on going too much further with it to ne honest. reliable power without ping is what i'm after now, as i've stopped autocrossing the car all together aswell

[Serpico]

what kind of PCpro settings are you running off hand?

I'm also running a fifth injector so my PC-Pro settings are going to be different than yours.

Green-0
Yellow-5&6
Red-6
Y/B -8
R/B-8

[down_hill_dog]

I'll be honest, that setup even though much different mechanically. gives me somthing to go from, compared to nothing at all right.

Stock out of the box my PC PRO came with the y/b and r/b set around the 5 mark.

[Serpico]

I honestly think 6-7psi is too much for a non-intercooled hotside for an 01'. The air leaving the supercharger can reach between 250-300 degrees and that is just way too hot for a higher compression/VVT motor.....just my .02

I would get your A/F dialed in first (hopefully with a wideband or at least a tailpipe sniffer on a dyno)

Also, try setting the start rate on the J&S all the way counter clockwise (Zero psi) and set the rate at 12:00 (1psi/lb) and the sensitivity know at 2:00.

Then if all else fails and you really don't want to invest a lot more money, it might be worth going to a smaller crank pulley to drop your boost down a little bit.

There's a very good reason why you still don't see a lot a guys with Hotside setups on 01' and up years....

[down_hill_dog]

duely noted. I'm going to see how these settings you've listed work. I've also searched and read some other setups, so i have an idea of where I should be now.

One thing that many people have talked about.. Which is the cruise nipple? I want to make sure i've been showing it boost from the correct source.

[down_hill_dog]

its scary to think the guy i bought the setup from ran a much smaller nose pulley all the time.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Good point. Top of the manifold towards the rear.

If you are connected at the DTB and it is the newer version DTB, that could be your problem. There is a thread around here someplace with pictures.


One thing that many people have talked about.. Which is the cruise nipple? I want to make sure i've been showing it boost from the correct source.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Or add E-Cool. ;)


Then if all else fails and you really don't want to invest a lot more money, it might be worth going to a smaller crank pulley to drop your boost down a little bit.
..

[down_hill_dog]

Well i tried a few things tonight.

I tried Serpicos 9 PSI Intercooled settings.

start = 9:00
rate = 12:00
sens = 2:00

green = 0
yellow = 5/6
red = 6
y/b = 8
r/b = 8

ZERO ping, but slow as hell. To be expected with much less boost i'm sure.

I then tried the suggested J&S settings with the stock PC pro settings.

start = full ccw
rate = 12:00
sens = 2:00

green = 0
yellow = 0
red = 0
y/b = 5
r/b = 5

Again, slow as hell. No ping.

I then put a little common sense to work, and came up with somthing that seems reliable and quick with zero ping.

start = 10:00
rate = 10:00
sens = 2:00

green = 0
yellow = 0
red = 0
y/b = 6
r/b = 6/7

This was after repeated pulls, so it was about as hot as it was going to be.

Now i just need to get a wide band on it, and some dyno time to find the sweet spots. I have a good idea of what I should be looking for. Just had nowhere to start from with the J&S..

Thanks guys, i'll keep you updated on my progress

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Not bad. Just remember, getting that a/f ratio dialed in is the most important thing... other than making sure you have no pinging. The basic concept is to get the a/f ratio to a fairly steady 12:1 at all rpm (or at least from 4000-7000rpm range) and then set the timing to the minimum retard so that you still don't have ping. Of course this is by far best done on a dyno and also you may have to readjust the a/f after making timing changes. On a dynojet be warned that you need to pull more timing than what you think when you drive it on the street. That is what I have found in the past with my setup. For example, back when I pulled 221rwhp I was running only about 2-3 deg timing retard on the dyno with no ping. However, on the street there would be ping at times with this setting, so I ended up closer to about 5 deg timing retard on the street to give a little cushion.

Bill

[down_hill_dog]

I figured that is about the way you would tackle the situation in. I just have to get a wideband now, so that I can get those AFR's right. Already the car is running much better though.

I understand what your saying about the dynojet. They dont produce as much load as somthing like a Mustang dyno does. But I guess thats why Mustang dynos always read so much lower. But then again, noone in my province even has a dynojet that I know of.

One thing i've found with this car is heat plays a large role in how it feels. Not just IAT's, but overall engine heat. If I have both fans running and engine coolant temps stay lower, even though the intake temp seems to be higher it runs much better than if the intake temp is a little lower and coolant temps are higher.

[down_hill_dog]

Using the USB -> obdII interface on my laptop i'm seeing coolant temps of 200*+ in town :( (my car has an a/c condensor in front of the rad) So i figured it was time for a 53 MM Koyo, it should be here tomorrow. This should help ping suppression and reliability

[chuckerants]

Using the USB -> obdII interface on my laptop i'm seeing coolant temps of 200*+ in town :( (my car has an a/c condensor in front of the rad) So i figured it was time for a 53 MM Koyo, it should be here tomorrow. This should help ping suppression and reliability

200F coolant temp is normal.

The Miata (at least the 99/00), the ECU turns on the radiator fan at 207F.

See my thread about the SPAL fan controller:

http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1155

[down_hill_dog]

200F while cruising down the highway at 40-50mph is normal? I thought that was wayyy too high from personal experience.

[chuckerants]

200F while cruising down the highway at 40-50mph is normal? I thought that was wayyy too high from personal experience.

That depends. When I had a 195F t-stat it was normal. Now that I have a 185F t-stat, I cruise at around 185F~190F.

[lds2002black]

I'm running a 37 Koyo which I sealed up so that all air that enters the nose has to go through the radiator (also have A/C condensor) and so far has stayed in the 193-195 range (I think the thermostat is 192?). Just looked at the data and on my 2-3-4 gear pass the water temp went from 193 to 196. Oil Temp was in the 215-220 range.

[down_hill_dog]

Do you feel as though the Koyo was essential? Or did you even test for temps pre- Koyo? I'm wondering if my OE rad with fans wired to be on with ignition on will be sufficient. I do run a 180* T-stat aswell.

You guys have me debating on whether I should or should not pick it up this afternoon. The price of the Koyo would be a good chunk of a FMIC setup or E-cool or even a proper WI setup that won't fail on me anymore. At $400 cdn, it really is a wicked deal on the big Koyo. But no matter how good of a deal, if I don't need it... it woudl be money wasted.

[chuckerants]

Do you feel as though the Koyo was essential? Or did you even test for temps pre- Koyo? I'm wondering if my OE rad with fans wired to be on with ignition on will be sufficient. I do run a 180* T-stat aswell.

You guys have me debating on whether I should or should not pick it up this afternoon. The price of the Koyo would be a good chunk of a FMIC setup or E-cool or even a proper WI setup that won't fail on me anymore. At $400 cdn, it really is a wicked deal on the big Koyo. But no matter how good of a deal, if I don't need it... it woudl be money wasted.

My progression has been from the OEm to PWR 37mm to the Koyo 55mm. I only added an Autometer temp gauge when I got the PWR.

The temps with the PWR 37mm and the Koyo 55mm was pretty much the same in my experience. If I were to do it over again, I would have just stayed with the PWR 37mm due to having more room under the hood.

However, I would have closed off all the space around the radiator and the AC condenser like I have now. That alone IMO keeps the temps more stable (lower) by directing all of the air THROUGH the radiator and not around it.

The very first thing though would be to have a real gauge. Whether you get a Scangauge or an aftermarket, you really need a true temp gauge. Then you can actually see what the effects of any change you make.

Also, buy a quality STANT T-stat. I also believe that the last 2 T-stats I bought from a local store were crap. I ordered the one I have now from Rockauto.com after looking up the part number from Stant.com.

[down_hill_dog]

I am currently using a Stant 180* stat. and when I am purposely keeping an eye on my temp guage, I don't rely on my dash needle or even an autometer... I hook up the RS232 cable to my laptop, so I can tell exactly where it is and when Ping starts and goes away. I find when i'm right in around the 180-190 coolant temp range the ping resistance is alot better than when it is in the 200 range.

What i'm wondering is, will I spending my dollars in the wrong place? Or would that $400 for the big Koyo be spent better on a proper WI setup, e-cool or somthing that will actually benefeit the cars performance. My tuning is usually done on a dyno with a tailpipe sniffer to monitor AFR's, but maybe a Wideband which I don't have yet would be a better investment than a rad?

If I do some day decide to go FMIC, I don't think the stock rad would EVER handle it being that there would be TWO cores in front of the tiny plastic tanked rad.

What do you guys think? My ultimate goal is not to be able to pulley up and make more power. I just want to be able to run reliably in all temperatures with good power and ZERO ping. One thing I still don't fully have.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

I am quite sure an FMIC (I recommend the TDR) would drastically reduce your boosted air temps and also allow you to run reliably with no ping and no timing retard. I used to have a temp gauge post intercooler and I found that with the TDR air/air IC I would see the air temp drop to 10-15 deg F over ambient while boosting. The nice thing with it vs. the PWR air/water setup I was running was that it wouldn't heatsoak .. I'm talking about charge air temps here. For example, when stopped idling for a good while, the air temps may go up 10 or 20 deg F, but they would immeditately drop as soon as the car moved forward again.... even at say 10 or 20 mph. With the air/water IC I had before that once it would heatsoak, it would take forever to cool back down again. The function of the air/water was that it would slowly heatsoak over time, especially when either stopped or boosting at WOT, and then it would even more slowly dissipate the heat. I found out at Deal's Gap that what would happen was the air charge temps started out around 110 deg F (outside air was around 80 deg F) and within about 5 min of "spirited" :biggrin: driving behind Brant it would get up to around 180 deg F, at which point I was having to turn the JR BTC up to about 7 deg to stop the pinging. Then I would have to take it easy for at least 10-15 min before I could start driving spirited again. In contrast, the air/air IC takes forever to heatsoak (most I saw was 40 deg F over ambient... again at the Gap) and it would immediately cool down... within seconds... when you let off. Even fully heatsoaked it still would allow me to run full timing without pinging... it is just that I had a gauge that I could see what the air charge temps were.

The negatives? With the air/air IC you will experience a decrease in driveability. Some people hardly notice, others can't stand it. The biggest issue is the idle dip, though I think the solutions of the IAC relocation and PC Pro from FFS go a long way to making it right again. The other issue is I definitely feel an aluminum race radiator is a necessity with the the air/air IC. It blocks a significant amount of the radiator area. The final negative is that it may tempt you to keep trying more and more pulleys :). That's what happened to me and look where I am now. I started out with the idea of adding a supercharger for just a "little bit" more power LOL.

My opinion though is it may be in your best interest to first try the E-Cool route and see if it stops your pinging issue. If it doesn't, and you are sure the engine is in 100% shape, then I would go to the next and more complicated/expensive step and intercool the air charge. As far as intercoolers go, I feel the TDR air/air IC is the best way to go for the Hotside MP62.

Bill

[down_hill_dog]

So, I think then what I might do is pick up the rad anyways. If Intercooling is truly that effective, it would be my next step. And I KNOW the stock rad would never handle it anyways.

[lds2002black]

I don't have water temps before and after ... radiator change was a result of Spec Miata stuff and getting rid of the plastic tanks on an aluminum radiator with the fear of them departing at some point. Soooo.. if I'm going to change I added core also (37mm) as I plan to run the car on the track (HPDE solo group) so wanted the extra cooling. I also totally sealed the radiator to the opening by closing off the sides, top and bottom. All air that enters the nose is going throug the radiator.

[down_hill_dog]

So the rad really helped control temps, in turn controlling my ping reduction. I've just about got it nailed now, with a tune on a wideband i'm gonna be a happy boy. Thanks once again guys.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/down_hill_dog2/IMG_0151.jpg

VS.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/down_hill_dog2/IMG_0147.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/down_hill_dog2/IMG_0148.jpg

[lds2002black]

Spend some time sealing the fans to the radiator ... otherwise they will just circulate engine compartment air and pull not much through the radiator when they come on.

[down_hill_dog]

already done :) that was just right after i put it in and made sure it fit well.

I had to modify the a/c condensor brackets to make it fit.

[jwalton]

Make sure you do the fan mod too so that they both turn on at the same time. Helped me keep the temps down a lot. I have the a hotside with the big koyo too and although overkill, I certainly won't ever have to worry about it overheating. I think it's bigger than the one in my Vette...

If you find that you have to go the I/C route, I would also recommend the TDR unit. I just finished putting it in because I just couldn't get rid of ping no matter what I tried. Once the S/C heatsoaked over the exhaust manifold, that was it. No amount of retard of fuel could deal with it (in my particular case). Tom and I ran everything from 12.5:1 to 10:1 and up to 6* retard at higher rpm and it helped but didn't completely take it away. The I/C (with my big Koyo) actually took longer to install than the S/C. I am anal about measuring a hundred times and cutting once (and then fixing the mistake anyway) so it took me forever but it does go in nice and the big Koyo will fit. Bottom line for me, no more ping. What a relief. Now I need bigger brakes and a trip to the dyno to finalize the tune.

[down_hill_dog]

your car sounds like mine.

i'm glad to hear that you guys were to get it down and kill ping.

as we creep into summer, I have a feeling that i'll be buying a new water injection kit.. As it is truly the one thing that really helped.. and I dont want to go FMIC

[jwalton]

I considered the WI route, but I'm lazy and didn't want to have to track another fluid and worry about it running out. The FMIC was a major PITA, but it's done now and I don't have to worry about anything anymore (well accept for idle droop but I think I have that under control). Good luck with yours.

[chuckerants]

What a coincidence. I may be getting rid of mine since I got my timing card. If I didn't have so much methanol, I'd probably be pulling it off the car now.

your car sounds like mine.

i'm glad to hear that you guys were to get it down and kill ping.

as we creep into summer, I have a feeling that i'll be buying a new water injection kit.. As it is truly the one thing that really helped.. and I dont want to go FMIC

[99mx5]

OK down_hill-dog,

Those teaser pics of the flares and wide tires begs to ask for more shots of your car ;) Looks sweet so far!

-Ari

[down_hill_dog]

Chuck, which kit do you have?

I was considering buying new through Coolingmist, one of the Varicool Trunkmount systems so that it is all contained in one unit.

99mx, only since you asked.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/down_hill_dog2/cuties-1.jpg

[chuckerants]

I have an Aquamist with the HSV.

Woah, CM kits have gotten a little more expensive than the last time checked. Chuck, which kit do you have?

I was considering buying new through Coolingmist, one of the Varicool Trunkmount systems so that it is all contained in one unit.

99mx, only since you asked.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/down_hill_dog2/cuties-1.jpg

[99mx5]

Looks nice! I love that wide stance. What size tires do you have?

[FormerDatsun510Man]

That looks just great!!!! The flares and other details you did really set it up just right. Not overly flashy, buy lets those who know something about cars that it has a bit more than a stock Miata under the hood :biggrin: Love the mean classic look!

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Those look about like 275mm tires? BIG.

[99mx5]

LOL!! I just noticed where his original wheels are! :) Nice!

[down_hill_dog]

hahaha thanks for the comments guys, but i'm sorry to burst your bubble. Theyre 205/40/16" tires on 16x8 0 offset wheels. 8 inches wide and Zero offset makes them look MUCH wider than they are.

The civic is my daily driver, so I thought i'd give it some Miata Style too.

[down_hill_dog]

WOAH~! What a Flash-back it has been reading this thread.

I finally got the car sorted out for the most part. It became reliable, pingless and fun.

I ended up selling it in the summer of 08, and bought an 08 Mazdaspeed 3 to meet my needs of practicality.

I did however get another Miata Owner to switch from the JRPC to the PCPRO.

Terry has virtually the same setup as my 01 did.

Early MP62 Hotside, 4 rib, J&S Safeguard, BR8EIX, Although he has a 6 speed and NO a/c condensor in front of his rad. During the summer months he runs with a w/i kit hooked up.

I'm going to see if we can get a wideband for the car, as neither of us have one. But I am going to be reviewing these settings spoken about in this thread to see if we can get him to where he needs to be aswell.

Since it's been pretty well a year since i've been here... Is there any breakthroughs on the 01+'s that we should know about before getting into this project?