Snubbed on Miata.net, again...

[MiataMTF]

The Definitive Engine Management Comparison Thread - http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=275656. It states:

"The Band-Aids"
3- PowerCard Pro
Compatibility: unknown
Vendor: FFS and Moss, allegedly
Price: $500 (est.)
Opinion: Same as PowerCard, but with cooler-looking sticker on the front panel. Doesn’t seem to actually be for sale anywhere.


It's unfortunate that they are so enamoured of MS and other "turbo" solutions. Personally, I like the idea of a fuel management solution that costs $500 (prewired harness included), can be installed in under 10 minutes or less, and can be reliably tuned in less than an hour on the dyno. Hopefully, the noobs can recognize the bias.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Mike,

MS is a good device. It works. What tells you those people don't think it is as good as they say is the fact that they have to demean the PC-Pro to try and make the MS look better.

All I can say is that I have 140,000+ miles on my engine. 110,000 at over 200WHP. 30,000 more or less on the PC-Pro. ~225WHP at present and it runs on 91 octane in Arizona.

What would you want any better?

I saw Andrew's 99 MS. Big box and hundreds of pieces. Buy lots of solder? The average customer has to ask himself "Do I want that or plug in the PC-Pro and drive?". Is there anything wrong with the MS? No. But I think it is for the 1% and I sell to the other 99%.

The MS has it's own forum on mtnet. Even the most outspoken MS worshippers have serious problems that go unanswered or, at best, answered with "that doesn't work on mine either". :) All the PC-Pro seems to get is "do I adjust the yellow/blue or green/blue?". :)

Just ignore them, I do.

If you go to the classifie
section on mnet, you will find Link and emanage and Voodoo and several MS for sale but I can't remember a PC-Pro for sale there. Think about it. I can't speak for Moss but my PC-Pro sales are up around 250. Mine are on BRP/FM Hotsides, JR M45 Hotsides, Turbos and, of course, Coldsides. These Miatas run from 150-250WHP and span 1990-2005 with no problems. All plug-in. When the other devices can make those claims, let me know.

[MX-Drew]

Tom, I assume you meant my box of bits, that was for an 04 but that is splitting hairs.

I bought the MS because for me it was very cheap, (no shipping or taxes etc and the exchange rate at $2 to the £1) and my background is electronics (the same as yours Tom) it just seemed a fun project. I don't even have a plan when it will go in the car because at the moment I'm happy with the PC Pro.

I may even end up building the MS and then selling it on Ebay. :party:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yep. Yours. I meant to say 99+. I belive the pre-99 are pre-assembled.. You might have fun playing with it and I'm sure it will work as well as the PC-Pro and stock ECU combination after a couple months of tuning. All I'm trying to say is that 99% of my customers want to install kit and drive with very little tuning. The best suggestion I have seen so fat from MS is to use it in the piggyback mode so the ECU still runs the engine off boost. With Mazda's thousands of hours of off boost tuning, it is hard to throw that away for the "fun" of doing that yourself.

I had a full ECU once and really got tired of trying to get it to run right. It was fun to play with and I really enjoyed the challenge but, after a year or so, just tired of it. I had it running great on boost but tired of trying to get it running right off boost where it spent 90% of it's time.

[chuckerants]

When will they learn that more "features" does not equal "better" - at least for the other 99% of us?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, if you are going to replace the stock ECU, you have to have more features. You need to control the fan on/off for the radiator, the fan on/off for the A/C, the A/C clutch which requires monitoring the gas pressure, and all of the other minor things that the stock ECU used to control. I guess the biggest problem I have with the full ECUs like the MS and others is the lack of OBD2 support. It will never be CARB approved and more and more states like Arizona, use the OBD2 check for emissions testing. That problem will get a lot worse before it gets better. Like the RB midpipe, I think it wont be long before the full ECU companies will have to advertise "For off road use only".

[MiataMTF]

When will they learn that more "features" does not equal "better" - at least for the other 99% of us?

That's just it - "more" isn't necessary better, I think it's generally just more work and cost (in time and tuning, if not in dollars). Patton said: "A good plan executed today, is better than a perfect plan next week".

As Tom said - the 1% might want to fool around with MS or other alternatives while the rest of us just want to install a PC-Pro and drive :) .

There's also the concept of diminishing returns: Based on what the first 90% of a task costs, you can usually expect to double that cost to reach 99% and double it again for 100%.

If I wanted perfect engine management, I'd probably go with a TEC-3 computer and plan on spending two-weeks on the dyno.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

At $125/Hr


If I wanted perfect engine management, I'd probably go with a TEC-3 computer and plan on spending two-weeks on the dyno.

[MX-Drew]

I totally agree with everything said and in no way do I think the MS is better than the PC Pro solution or I would not have bought the PC Pros.

What the MS can do is drive a display like a ScanGauge but you can display much more info. As I said I have installed the Pros and think they are great and would / will not knock them.

At the end of the day it is horses for courses.

What I would love to see is a stepper motor to control the bypass valve on the supercharger then with programming it could have a service mode (no boost), warm up mode (no boost until the engine is warmed up) the list goes on in my mind anyway.

[Toby Weir-Jones]

I totally agree with everything said and in no way do I think the MS is better than the PC Pro solution or I would not have bought the PC Pros.

It's not really a question of better or worse. MS serves a different need.

Where a lot of the full-ECU fans get confused is in conflating the notions of need and ability. MS provides full programmability, and tuning is all about replicating OEM-type drivability while expanding the performance envelope such that engine enhancements work. So it has the ability to do all this magical stuff (subject to the tuner's skill, obviously), which is fine, but the need only exists because of the choice to take the OEM ECU out of the picture. In many cases it's arguable whether this latter point is, in fact, required.

The piggyback approach (Xede, PCP, others) reduce the scope of need to only providing a running engine when the performance demands fall outside the OEM ECU's range of authority. They don't have the ability to run the idle motor, or the AC clutch, or various other things. But you're sticking with the OEM systems to do all that, so your needs are similarly reduced.

Where a fully-programmable ECU is needed is when one of two general conditions exist: either your engine's entire operating envelope is outside the ranges of the OEM system, or your demand for finer granularity (tuning safely on the ragged edge). The FFS kits don't expose either of these needs, so the PCP approach is great.

There are certainly folks who enjoy the hobbyist aspect of programming the ECU, fine-tuning it, etc, and nobody should begrudge them their fun. But in another example of conflation, some of the hobbyists equate their (sometimes questionable) abilities to perform this tuning with an inherent superiority of the system being tuned.

The judgmental and defensive attitudes in this debate (on both sides, to be honest) are bizarre because they presuppose the tools are equivalent (which they clearly aren't) and that the application requirements (i.e. the needs) are also the same. But most buyers in this market are often neither sufficiently honest with themselves nor sufficiently informed to make a fully educated decision, so elements of fear and comfort -- rather than a purely objective approach -- come into play.

In the end I think the vendors who document their product features with hype, piss, and vinegar are doing a disservice to their customers. It's a question of nuance -- it's very easy to allow the implication of superiority to be carried along with all the exciting bullet points without needing to say so overtly. But the number of people who need all those features in order to enjoy their cars is much smaller than the number of buyers. It's really quite similar to the person who buys a sports car yet never actually exploits its full performance, because it's unsafe, or they lack the skill, or they live in too-dense an area. Emotion figures in the vast majority of these purchase decisions; it's inescapable. We're (almost) all guilty of it.

In the end I like Tom's approach best because he makes the least noise about the merits of PCP, instead focusing on the shortest path to enjoying the car. There is a lot more flexibility to the PCP than he exhibits, because it's irrelevant to most buyers. And while it may not have all the bullet points as MS, or TEC, or Hydra, that too is inconsequential in a generalised case. That doesn't make it best in absolute terms (because this isn't an objective analysis) but it does make it most suitable for a particular subset of the market. I have no doubt that, should another platform come along which fits even better (for reasons of cost, or support, or whatever), Tom would make the switch.

Really, the whole debate is somewhat tiresome. People are always very keen to speak up and defend the decision they've already made in an effort to feel better about themselves in the face of criticism from an opposing viewpoint. It's insecurity and ignorance. If your setup works for you and meets your needs, be happy and get on with your day.

twj


p.s. I've deliberately left the OBD2 issue of the foregoing because it's more of a localised requirement, though it becomes a slam-dunk factor for those of us in OBD2-testing areas.

[chuckerants]

Really, the whole debate is somewhat tiresome.

Amen 100% to that.

[MS2KSE]

You'll do know you just can't pick up a turd from the clean end" ? meaning you'll are just fueling THEIR attention seeking, leave them to their own world of "mine is bigger than yours":angel:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Toby, You said in 500 words what I tried to say in 50. :) Yours is better.

What bothers me is the constant "Piggybacks are no good" attitude? It is like saying that Hoosiers are the very best track tire so everybody ought to use them even though probably less than 1% of the Miatas ever see a track. I've driven on Hoosiers. They are awesome but I wouldn't waste my time and money on them on the street.

Anyhow, we have probably already fueled the fires more than we need to here. Leave it said that full aftermarket computers are great in their place and Piggybacks are great in their place and PC-Pros are the best. :) Just kidding.

Probably time already to close this one.