Do you need AFR and Boost gauges on FI?

[ROZ]

How essential do y'all think having boost and AFR gauges are?

Assuming that the new ECU handles things correctly and the set-up is fine, is it just a bit of techno-bling (or an ad to a passing car thief)?

[lds2002black]

I would hate to run mine with out AFR. Boost is pretty fixed unless something goes wrong. Last time at the track I got in the throttle and did not see the AFR go to the normal 11.5-12.0 range with boost. Came in and found one of the pressure hoses off the timing card so no boost signal to the PCPro cards. Could have been bad if I did not have the AFR where I could see it.

[ScottA]

If every thing is working fine and set right You are good , When something goes south , pugged fuel filter.pump failure ect .Then the A/F guage is a earlly warning device . Priceless
How much is 'piece of mind' worth to you.:hammer:

[ScottA]

The really nice thing about having a A/F gauge is that you can self tune the system yourself or just check on the system at any time. And see the results instantly. I wouldn't be without one. The boost gauge is nice, but not critical. You can monitor the boost on the Pc-Pro cards led system. Not as nice as a single gauge but it does the job. If you get a A/F gauge you will have no regrets as to the extra $ that you spent on it. You can only hope for the same if you don't get one.But the gauge is only as good as the person that is monitoring it.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

They are knid of like the oil pressure gauge and the water temp gauge and the fuel gauge (my wife says I never look at that one). You could live without them and you only glance at them once in awhile but they are nice to have.

[ROZ]

The really nice thing about having a A/F gauge is that you can self tune the system yourself

I was kinda hoping there was very little fiddling - just install and go....:scooter:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yep. Very little fiddling.

[chuckerants]

If you had a car that was in perfect condition and if nothing out of the ordinary happened, you wouldn't need either.

However, a vac/boost gauge is a great (ongoing and cheap) tool to determine if you have a problem. For example, if the vacuum line going into your PC Pro happened to get loose, (I've kicked mine loose a couple of times), a vac/boost gauge would tell you that something is amiss.

The same for a AFR gauge. Though I have a WB, I don't have a gauge as I only check it maybe a couple of times a year.

I was kinda hoping there was very little fiddling - just install and go....:scooter:

[ROZ]

Though I have a WB, I don't have a gauge as I only check it maybe a couple of times a year.

Cheers guys. I'm on a learning curve OK

Do you have a NB output from your WBO2 you feed into the PC Pro/ECU?
Is it worth having a gauge on a NBO2 - does it tell you anything as it's so limited around stoich?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I like the two devices, stock NB and my WB, to be separate. That way, one is watching the other. When my NB started going bad, it started running rich. With the WB reading the results of the fuel after the NB, it was easy to diagnose and repair.

NB gauges are OK and they do tell you lean/rich. Only problem is how lean or how rich. Second problem is that if you are real rich, they can read lean. Weird but true.

[ROZ]

Ok I see.
Where have you got your WB mounted? Do you use the stock to feed the pc-pro?

[chuckerants]

Most people just go to a muffler/exhaust shop and have them weld in a bung. They charged me $20 IIRC.

WB makers usually recommend the bung to be higher than 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock to avoid any moisture settling on the O2 sensor.

I have a Zeitronix and have the controller in the glovebox and plug in my laptop whenever I want to monitor the AFR. I may monitor it anytime I make a change or 2~3 times a year. I just use the laptop to datalog.record the run so I can go back and look at it at my leisure.

IIRC, Tom has a digital AFR gauge in his car and it's really hard for me as a passenger to watch it so I don't miss having one in my car.

Ok I see.
Where have you got your WB mounted? Do you use the stock to feed the pc-pro?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

ROZ, I'm not sure where the thought about feeding O2 to the PC-Pro came from. There is no O2 feed to the PC-Pro. The PC-Pro does not monitor O2. The wideband is only for you to watch and monitor. The stock O2 sensor feeds the ECU but, when you go into boost the ECU and the PC-Pro ignore the O2 sensor. They simply add fuel at a pre-set rate and that will get you the proper A/F. Off boost, the ECU runs closed loop and adjusts fuel to the O2 sensor. That is why I would leave the stock sensor where it is and add, if you want one, a WB. If you decided to replace the NB with a WB, it would still have to have it's own bung further down as it cannot be located as close to the exhaust valves as the narrow band. The WB can't take the heat.

Chuck, I didn't install the WB for passengers to read. :)

ROZ, if you watch this video http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/13-8.wmv you can see the WB in the bottom of the screen. At idle, it roams back and forth from about 14.2 to 15.2 which is an average of 14.7. It does that because that is how a NB works. It oscillates and the ECU averages the signal. A WB, on the other hand is very steady. When I put my foot down, you will see that it steadies out and locks on about 11.7 to 11.9 in every gear. However, the WB is not connected to anything. It is simply reporting what is happening.

[ROZ]

Thanks for that Tom, that's fantastic info. I really need to go to SC 101!

ROZ, I'm not sure where the thought about feeding O2 to the PC-Pro came from.
Just guessing..? :stuart:

There is no O2 feed to the PC-Pro. The PC-Pro does not monitor O2. The wideband is only for you to watch and monitor.
I think I was just thinking of the two as one new combined unit in my tiny brain...!

The stock O2 sensor feeds the ECU but, when you go into boost the ECU and the PC-Pro ignore the O2 sensor. They simply add fuel at a pre-set rate and that will get you the proper A/F. Off boost, the ECU runs closed loop and adjusts fuel to the O2 sensor. That is why I would leave the stock sensor where it is and add, if you want one, a WB. If you decided to replace the NB with a WB, it would still have to have it's own bung further down as it cannot be located as close to the exhaust valves as the narrow band. The WB can't take the heat.
Cool (or not in this case). That's really informed me - thanks a mil. So do you need to tap your own port for the WB or do the downpipes/exhausts normally come with taps already there?

ROZ, if you watch this video you can see the WB in the bottom of the screen. At idle, it roams back and forth from about 14.2 to 15.2 which is an average of 14.7. It does that because that is how a NB works.
So the gauge is showing your NB or WB? I take it the digital display (which I can't read) is giving the same readout and the led "dial"?

It oscillates and the ECU averages the signal. A WB, on the other hand is very steady. When I put my foot down, you will see that it steadies out and locks on about 11.7 to 11.9 in every gear. However, the WB is not connected to anything. It is simply reporting what is happening.
I absolutley luuuuuuuurrrrrrrve the way the bonnet (sorry hood) comes up everytime you change gear and floor it - I want some of that! :devil:
What's the gauge that's next to it that comes up with a red light at the end of the run?

Cheers!:party:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Here are my best answers.


Thanks for that Tom, that's fantastic info. I really need to go to SC 101!


Just guessing..? :stuart:


I think I was just thinking of the two as one new combined unit in my tiny brain...!


Cool (or not in this case). That's really informed me - thanks a mil. So do you need to tap your own port for the WB or do the downpipes/exhausts normally come with taps already there?

You need to add your own. Over here muffler shops do it for about $20

So the gauge is showing your NB or WB? I take it the digital display (which I can't read) is giving the same readout and the led "dial"?

The gauge is showing the WB but the effect is caused by the NB as it is controlling the fuel. It swings back and forth so the WB shows the swings.

I absolutley luuuuuuuurrrrrrrve the way the bonnet (sorry hood) comes up everytime you change gear and floor it - I want some of that! :devil:
What's the gauge that's next to it that comes up with a red light at the end of the run?

That is my boost gauge. In those days it was set to 'warn' me if boost exceeded 13PSI. Now I make ~18PSI and the gauge only goes to 15 so the red light is somewhat annoying. It is ALWAYS on. :)

Cheers!:party:

[ROZ]

I was looking at the Zeitronix Zt-2 (more money :hammer:) and the additional boost sensor. Now I'm not going to go over 200bhp so I wouldn't need anything bigger than the 50psi unit would I?

[Mark]

You wont even hit 15 PSI. I installed an Autometer 4376 that goes from 30 In Hg.-Vac. - 15 PSI. Autometer might be on the high end price wise. I'm sure you can find other brands a little cheaper.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yep. What Mark said. Not likely you will get 50PSI with one of my kits. Not this year anyhow. :)

Seriously 15PSI is normal 20 PSI gauge tops. I am around 18 PSI, I think? My gauge stops at 15 PSI.

Make sure it reads vacuum and boost.

[ROZ]

So my decision would be somewhere between

A) "cost effective" AFR (from my NBO2) and boost gauges
...up to...
Z) the full monty Zeitronix Zt-2 bundle with WBO2, boost sensor and EGT

hmmmm...

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Autometer Vac/Boost and AEM wideband. Under $300.

[ROZ]

Had a look and found the AEM for just over $300. If I went any extra $100 (£50) then I could have the datalogging of the Zeitronix... Too close to be a cheaper alternative I reckon.

And then the boost gauge on top.

[ROZ]

Well I went for the Zeitronix (as Tom knows as it's sitting on his shelf).

In anticipation I wondered if y'all could help me in ensuring I connect the inputs in bold below to the correct wires at the ECU. My EU '96 has a lookalike US '95 we (ie Tom) believes. Thanks.

1 Red - Switched power (ignition)
2 Wht - WB Output
3 Grn - 0-12v square wave RPM input
4 Org - Z boost sensor input
5 W/B - Warning output
6 Yel - Boost sensor 5V supply
7 Blk - Power ground
8 Brn - Sensor ground (EMS ground reference)
9 Prp - Simulated NB output/Linear WB output
10 Gry - TPS
11 Brn - Sensor ground (Boost sensor ground reference)
12 Blu - 0-5V User input

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Answers as best as I can are in Bold.

Well I went for the Zeitronix (as Tom knows as it's sitting on his shelf).

In anticipation I wondered if y'all could help me in ensuring I connect the inputs in bold below to the correct wires at the ECU. My EU '96 has a lookalike US '95 we (ie Tom) believes. Thanks.

1 Red - Switched power (ignition) Pin 1B.
2 Wht - WB Output
3 Grn - 0-12v square wave RPM input Pin 2I.
4 Org - Z boost sensor input
5 W/B - Warning output
6 Yel - Boost sensor 5V supply
7 Blk - Power ground Pin 2B
8 Brn - Sensor ground (EMS ground reference) Pin 2B
9 Prp - Simulated NB output/Linear WB output
10 Gry - TPS Pin 2M
11 Brn - Sensor ground (Boost sensor ground reference) Pin 2B
12 Blu - 0-5V User input

[MS2KSE]

Gauges and there location, I don't care for the piller mounts, and am looking for some duel read out oil pressure and H2O temp if anyone has a site since the OME gauges are worthless

Thanks

[socal pat]

I went to these guys. I got their 3gauge panel shown at the top right of the page. I put in the Westach water/oil temp, about 1/2 way down the page, and an Autometer boost/vac with my AEM AFR. http://www.trackdogracing.com/website/gauges/gauges_types.htm

[ROZ]

Gauges and there location, I don't care for the piller mounts, and am looking for some duel read out oil pressure and H2O temp if anyone has a site since the OME gauges are worthless
Thanks

That's why I'm going for Zeitronix - nice little descrete LCD panel that I can have on view without it yelling "HEY JOY-RIDERS, THERE'S SOMETHING FUN UNDER MY HOOD! :devil2:
If it turns out I want something less textual and more visable perhaps I'll look at the DIY add-on via Marks' Depot....:shifty:
http://www.scirocco.org/tech/misc/afgauge/af.html

[Tink]

I put my gauges on the pillar. Everything is in front of me when I drive, including my Scanguage. Just a personal opinion that glancing down near the radio is not suitable for me and safety.

I just sent my Scanguage off for upgrade - supposed to have O2 when I get it back. I will probably re-think everything if that works.

I will also think of what I could have saved had I known about the Scangauge update before I added the wideband gauge.

[MS2KSE]

I put my gauges on the pillar. Everything is in front of me when I drive, including my Scanguage. Just a personal opinion that glancing down near the radio is not suitable for me and safety.

I just sent my Scanguage off for upgrade - supposed to have O2 when I get it back. I will probably re-think everything if that works.

I will also think of what I could have saved had I known about the Scangauge update before I added the wideband gauge.
Their site isn't very clear, is the 02 wide band ? and can it monitor H2O temp and oil pressure ? The three basic needs . Plus I wouldn't have to figure out how to remove the cassette part of the bose system

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

You can add the O2 data to the ScanGauge yourself. Just use the settings for the ISO Bank 1.

As it is reading the stock O2 sensor, the data will be similar to a narrow band gauge but probably not as readable as it appears to put out 0-99 on the ScanGauge to represent the O2 sensor reading. Not sure what number means what?

Tink, you did the right thing buying the wideband. A narrowband gauge is at best a rich/lean indicator. Sometimes they can be scary as they will show lean if the fuel is too rich. Wideband is worth the price.

[ROZ]

I put my gauges on the pillar. Everything is in front of me when I drive, including my Scanguage. Just a personal opinion that glancing down near the radio is not suitable for me and safety.

Safety is my middle name! Mine's going behind my steering wheel, like where most of you guys put your SGIIs

[peterc]

Tom,

I purchased one of the AEM UEGO from Dan. Reading the instructions it says to install the bung at least 36" from the exhaust port and before the cat. I was some how under the impression that the bung went in the connecting pipe. Where exactly do you have yours installed? Is there any other advise you have on the install/setup of this device?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Mine is mounted just before the cat. As far away from the head as possible. It is a heat issue. Close to the head is too hot.

You also need to mount it at an up angle so no moisture can collect in the sensor.

[peterc]

Thanks Tom. I'll get under there and see where is the best place.

p.s. I still owe you.

[lds2002black]

Here is where mine is located.

[ScottA]

I actually put mine just behind the front flange of the cat itself. It was the easiest place to get to.You can loosen the flange and drop the whole cat and exhaust system down far enough that it is easy to work on. Mounted mine just about straight up on the top side of the pipe. Worked out great. This was on a 2001 year model. I ran the wires threw the boot and into cab.

[peterc]

Thanks everyone. I may do an install like ScottA mentions, as this seems like the easiest part to remove and take to the muffler shop.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

[Tink]

I did the Innovate WB that provides signal to stock ECU and to WB gauge.

Car performs fine. Numbers were good on dyno run. I like my pillar mounts.

If I was doing it over again, would get a different WB, with a separate mount; probably the AEM.

My Scangauge II is updated and back in "production". The O2 readings are not right (run all over the map); Scangauge told me to check my MTH settings. I checked them about 5 times, but will re-check again this weekend.

I also have to do a free air calibration on my O2 sensor (pull it out and turn on car so sensor heats up). I was going to do that last weekend, but I don't have a tool that will get to the stock location. Buddy is a mechanic at Land Rover and during slow times he can do side work, hopefully Friday he will have time to pull it, sure he has the right tool. Gonna get him to help me with the cool air re-location. Be good to have a knowledgeable person around when I start, besides he can probably do it much faster then me.