I killed it

[Satisaii]

Bad day here.

In the last couple of months I did:

Wire tuck
New fuel lines
Finished coolant reroute
MMR motor and diff mounts
Jet-hot header
Relocated oil cooler

I figured if I am going to drive this thing I need to go ahead and get it running. I started it up yesterday, just long enough to move some fluids around to check levels and pressures.

Today I wanted to get the PCV system hooked back up. After I finished that I wanted to run the car up to temperature.

So I started it up. I noticed an interesting ticking noise and started to track it down with a stethoscope. Just as I am homing in on it, the engine goes bang and dies.

This can't be good.

Check compression:
90, 110, 110, 90
Yep, not good.

Check timing:
Timing way off everywhere.

Pull the valve cover:
Metal shavings galore.

Pull the cams:
Metal missing from cam bearings.

All I can figure is that even though I had oil pressure, I must not have had enough flow.

I am pretty sure based on the condition of the head that I am going to need a new long block. Does anyone have any advice on how to pick a good motor from a wrecking yard? If money were not any problem I would be doing a stroker motor, but I don't have $10K to spend right now. I would rather do it on a budget and get a decent running one rather than rebuilding. Or I might go for a rebuilt.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Ouch. All I can say is stay away from those used JDM engines.

Can the oil pump lose prime from sitting?

[socal pat]

If you buy used then have them supply you with compression numbers. Rebuilt longblocks should come with a warranty but at a tad higher price. Don't know what your budget is but in your shoes if you are looking for longevity and dependability I'd go rebuilt.... NOT JDM.

[Satisaii]

I am pretty confident that something in the oil cooler lines was preventing flow. I had good pressure very quickly after the start, but some of the cam journals were dry when I pulled it apart.

I am guessing that the head can't be rebuilt when the bearing surfaces are VERY badly scored. I will need a new one, and possibly no rebuildable core.

I am hoping that I can get around to pulling the head later today to see how bad it looks inside. If I am lucky, I can get the bottom end rebuilt. But I will go for the rebuilt and not the JDM. Too many bad reports.

This just comes at a bad time. I can afford to do it, but I am not wanting to spend the money. I wanted to do it right late next year and end up with a killer 300 hp car. Then I would sart to look at putting a bigger supercharger on it. This really just kills that idea.

[Steve in VC]

What about Parts Group?

http://partsgroup.com/store.aspx?category=Miata-Engine&Page=0

They have a 2004 engine with 68K miles for $2400.

[Satisaii]

I looked at that one last night.

It seems like I can get a rebuilt for ~$2100 without a core. On that Parts Group motor I am buying a bunch of stuff that I don't need. But it does look good. And they do have bare 99 blocks for $95 if mine turns out bad.

[Mark]

I'm guessing you probably also have a remote oil filter along with the oil cooler. Any chance you had the oil lines reversed so that the back flow valve in the filter kept the oil from flowing?

[Satisaii]

That is a good question. I routed my hoses through the frame rails and it is possible that I switched them up somewhere. I 'thought' I was very careful, but mistakes can happen. I will check it out here in a bit when I pull the bumper. It is also possible that my routing went through too many bends and fittings and it just was not flowing well.

The cylinder walls look good with just normal wear. I will just go cheap and rebuild the bottom end.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

We need Dan to step in. :-) That is what happened to his rebuit engine at the dyno. They swapped those two hoses and 30 seconds after it started, the cams were done. Seems the bottom end was fine, if I recall?

[Satisaii]

Well, Mark gets the prize for the day. If he wants to swing by and pick up a trashed head...

At least now I know it was my own damned fault. Still will need to get the bottom part rebuilt, mainly to make sure it does not have any metal mixed in the oil.

Just to put some icing on the cake, it started to pour on me. All I could do was stand there and look at all the crap laying out on the drive. After a few minutes I realized that the intercooler was filling with water, so I shut the hood.

[bogey]

I had good luck when I bought a used engine from PlanetMiata. They even provided a dyno of the engine. Prices are fair and they have a good reputation on used engines.

Talk to them and ask for a compression check on thier engines. Chances are they have the information about the car it came from.

I would buy from them again.

[Satisaii]

I have decided to do it on a very small budget.

I am going to have the bottom end cleaned, honed and new rings installed.

I am going to lightly sand the 2 cam bearings that are scored and reuse the head. Then I will clean it up massively and just go with it. Saves me about $800.

Considering this is a track car and does not get many miles, I am hoping to get a couple of years out of it. And the head is not that hard to replace when the time comes.

Anyone see a major problem with this that I am missing? I know it ain't great but the missus is getting tired of my spending $$$ on this.

[Mark]

Well, Mark gets the prize for the day. If he wants to swing by and pick up a trashed head...

I'll pass on the prize. Perhaps you can get a few bucks at an aluminum recycler? Strike that - just saw that you are going to re-use....

When I relocated the filter and added the oil cooler on mine, the first thing I did was mount the adapter plate and hoses when I had easy access to that part of the block, then left the hoses dangling around while I installed the SC. I was real worried I'd screw it up and forget which hose was which so I put a piece of red electrical tape on one to remind me. I had also switched over to a real oil pressure sensor/gauge during the process. After going over everything a million times, I stilled had my eyes pegged to that gauge the first time I fired it up. Too many new connections to be worried about.

[Satisaii]

Bought a used head. Whole engine goes into the macine shop tomorrow. Decision to do it once, right, made more sense than to do it again in a year.

[Satisaii]

Well.

Glad I went ahead and did this. It turns out that I had a broken piston and a slightly bent rod. I wonder how long it had been like this... I will hit the machine shop tomorrow to get the skinny on what and where.

Also getting a rebuilt head. My clutch disk was almost worn out, so I am replacing that too. What's next?

Seeking reccomendations for a break-in period and proceedure. Been a few decades since I have done this.

[maggie]

Check out this info from Flyingmiata:

http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/breakin.php

Most people try to baby their engines during break-in. It is important that the rings get seated in their grooves and to the cylinder walls during the break-in period. I have seen a few other web posts that recommend roughly the same procedure.

[Satisaii]

Got to see the parts today. The bottom end was not getting enough oil, either. All of the pistons were scored and one had a broken skirt. The force required to break the skirt was also enough to bend the rod.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Time to toss that engine.

[Satisaii]

Got it all back together and...

It does not run.

It has spark.

It has fuel pressure.

When I pull the spark plugs, I do not smell or see fuel. The fuel injection fuse is good. I will dig out the ole multimeter tomorrow and start checking. Any advice on what to check?

I am getting sick of this thing. About ready to give it away.

[99mx5]

Sounds like the injectors aren't being triggered. A sensor may also not be plugged in so that the ECU can send the injector pulses.

[Mark]

I will dig out the ole multimeter tomorrow and start checking. Any advice on what to check?

I am getting sick of this thing. About ready to give it away.

I'd be more that willing to be the receiver if you end up giving it away :).

Seriously though...

Maybe start with this info which was in a recent thread:

http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16113&postcount=2

While the thread shows what the signals should be at different RPM's, someone here (Tom?) should know what they might be while cranking. Also, I don't know how far you put things back together. But if you went all the way, it might be worthwhile to pull the SC belt and unplug the PC-Pros so that the car is attempting to run on just the stock ECU.

[Satisaii]

I know that the crank sensor is working since the fuel pump activates.

I can see that cam sensor is plugged in, but not sure what it signals. If it has to do with spark, then I know it works.

The S/C belt is off since this is a new engine, but I did not touch the wiring on the computer. My fuel injector harness is suspect, for sure. I will have to pull the intake to get to it, if it turns out to be the problem.

IF it does have fuel, my next suspect would be cam timing. This was a build with a "new" head. I put the cam gears on and set the timing based on the miata.net garage write-up. I have checked and checked again to make sure it looks right, but have nothing to compare it to. After lots of cranking, the timing marks still line up. Hmm, I did assume that the cam gears are identical on a 99, don't think I checked to see if the are different.

When I finally get pissed off enough to write it off, it will go to the first person to show up with a tow truck and pick-up to get everything Miata related that I have in storage. It will be one of those everything or nothing deals. And I won't help push it on a trailer.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The intake and exhaust cam gears are the same. If I remember correctly, the intake gear is correct if it says 'exhaust' on the front and the exhaust gear should say 'intake' on the front.

[Satisaii]

The way I undersood it to be set:

With the dowels on the cams pointed "up"...

The I on the intake cam gear should be up, putting the E on the E mark on the sheild.
The E on the exhuast cam gear should be up, putting the I on the I mark of the sheild.
The crank gear should be lined up with the mark on oil pump housing.

But even if I had done this wrong, I still should have wet spark plugs from fuel, right?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

That is right.

[maggie]

Are the coils firing to the correct cylinders?

[Satisaii]

The crank timing wheel has an inside and an outside to it. Flip it, and the car will not run.

Ran the car for about 1 minute and went to check for leaks. I have a bead of water (tastes sweet, so I know it is not condensation) all the way around the head/block joint (at least where it is visable.) I did a three stage torque on the head gasket (20, 40, 60 ft*lbs) using the star pattern. I used a new metal gasket from miata mania. I used the dowel pins in the block to locate the gasket and the head during assembly.

1. Is this the proper torque for a 99?
2. Does something happen to the gasket to help it seal when it reaches operating temperature for the first time?
3. From what I remember of the gasket design, I would have an oil leak if I had put the gasket on wrong. But, is it possible that I put it on wrong and have a coolant leak?
4. Anything else, or should I just go start to take it back apart and do it again?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

56-60 lb-ft is what my book says. It also recommends 2-3 steps. Looks like you did that right. Don't know about the rest?

[Satisaii]

I went back and retorqued the bolts (one at a time)and used a lubricant on the threads this time. I always did this when building old American V8's. Don't know if it is recomended or not for these cars, but at this point in time I might as well. Ran it for about 3 minutes and had a small drip of water coming off of the transmission. I don't see any water in the oil, or oil in the water. The exhaust has a funny sour smell to it. Not sure about that.

FWIW, the head had been machined flat. The block had just been cleaned up.

[Satisaii]

It is totally back together and running. I let it run until it almost overheated... and then I fixed the problem with the fan wiring. I let it run again until the fans came on. Problem fixed.

I then did a compression check. 180 psi on all 4. It may get better after the rings seat.

So I just did a quick drive. Solid motor mounts are brutal in the worst way. They may come out. There are just too many things inside a car that vibrate... LOUDLY. Not fun even on a car that only gets a little street action.

I won't be running the supercharger for a while, and it feels like it making about 70 hp. My intake is not good for NA operation. It will not rev at all, but that is OK for the first few hundred miles.

[Satisaii]

It just keeps getting better. I went on a 30 mile drive today, and on the way home it starts to run bad. I dive off the freeway and it dies. I take a quick right on a side street trying to find a place to park and there is a CHP sitting right there. The car is missing big time, barely crawling down the road. I get close to the end of the street and it gives up. I get out and walk away for a while...

When I get back the CHP is gone. I pop the hood and start to look for something obvious. See nothing, so I start it. Runs fine. I get about 3 blocks and it stops again. I manage to get into an industrial park and park it. Still can't find anything wrong. I take a wrench and tap on the crank angle sensor. It starts right up and it runs fine for the rest of the way home.

[Steve in VC]

I killed my crank sensor by trying to advance the timing. It would come and go.

Unfortunately, you probably killed any CAT in you system - I did with a 2 minute run in a barely "crawling mode".

[Satisaii]

I would not doubt it with all of the problems I have had. Guess i need to make a decision on what to do about it. Running a stock computer with 305cc/min injectors does not help it any.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Check the wires and connectors to the CAS. Maybe a bad connection? Bad sensor?

[Satisaii]

Considering the problems that I have had related to this sensor, I think it is time to replace it. Remember that high RPM miss I had? That was a poorly soldered wire on the CPS. I cannot imagine that helped the overall function of the sensor or it's lifespan.

Now Steve has me worried about the CAT. I hate to just replace it considering that I tend to run excessively rich on the freeway. I guess I could use the stock injectors for just running around and swap in the 305's at the track, but what a PITA (but cheap!) Or go with an adjustable FPR that I can turn up the pressure on at the track, or go with a stand-alone computer ($$$$ that I am not wanting to spend right now.)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I bought one of these from EBAY. Worked great. $30

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FUEL-PRESSURE-REGULATOR-CHEVY-CAVALIER-CAMARO-MIATA-WRX_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a15Q7 c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQha shZitem400011436760QQitemZ400011436760QQptZMotorsQ 5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[Satisaii]

For $30 I will give it a try. Is there an easy way to determine if the CAT is dead?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Stop. My bad. That is only for up to 97 Miatas with return fuel systems. Sorry. We tried it in a 96 and it worked great.

[Satisaii]

I have a return system on mine using the stock (in tank) FPR.

[Steve in VC]

For $30 I will give it a try. Is there an easy way to determine if the CAT is dead?
Depends how dead.

Some months after I got my CEL (but no apparent effect on performance), I disconnected the muffler from the resonator, and was surprised how quiet it was.

When the CATs (2000 CA), plugged fully, I changed exhaust systems. I ran the car with the muffler disconnected - very loud!

The difference was the back pressure in the CATs.

If you don't have a CEL, I wouldn't worry. If you do, pull the muffler.

[Steve in VC]

Satisaii,

What year car? Do you need CARB approval?

Steve

[Satisaii]

I have the Roadster Sport set-up. Went ahead and orded another cat and mid-pipe. When I am satisfied that I have fixed it, I will swap them out.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Do what we did on Steve in VC's car. VERY technical. We took it off and held it up to the bright sun. When we couldn't see ANY light through it, we determined it to be bad. :devil2:

[Satisaii]

This is a track car that gets very rare street driving. I just like having the car meet most of the environmental rules. I hate getting behind someone in a group drive (or on the track) who as a test pipe.

I have a house in Texas, and register the car there and keep it there occasionally. It meets the emission laws for that area by having a cat (just a visual inspection.) It works for now, but the laws are changing.

I have a plan for CARB that would make the state $$$ while encouraging the aftermarket community. It will never happen.

[Steve in VC]

Satisaii,

If you are talking about this pipe:

http://www.good-win-racing.com/Mazda-Performance-Part/11-1001.html

Several people have passed smog with them in San Diego.

Tom,

You heard the car with the muffler off, LOUD!. With the damaged CATs, long before the CATs fully died, I did the same thing, and it was quiet enough that I drove it around for 10 min.

I even disconnected before the mid-CAT. Still quiet (probably damaged the pre-CAT with a bad crank sensor).

Steve

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

This is the one I have and, with the stock muffler, is as quiet as a full stock exhaust.

http://www.good-win-racing.com/Mazda-Performance-Part/61-0069.html

[Satisaii]

Took it out for a nice drive the other night that ended in a tow home. Just love this car.

Symptoms same as before. Installed a new CPS, but that did not help.

It drove fine until I got on the freeway, and then it starts missing (just slightly.) Got off freeway with an slight miss. Driving home it gradually got worse. Went WOT just for fun and that killed it. It would do a quit/run/quit/run real fast. Can hear a relay clicking over. Some backfiring. I figure it is either an intermittent connection or a short. I have wiring harness out of the car to redo all of the work I have done in the past (which is not insubstantial.) The next step is to replace every single sensor in the car. Or get rid of it.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Time for a set of eyes like Mike/Curt?

[Satisaii]

My tow vehicle is now in Texas, so that is a bit hard. Plus sooooo many things are now totally missing from the wiring (2nd O2 sensor and EGR have been removed from the harness, to start.) To get it back to a point of no CEL would take a new harness. That would not be cheap.

Next time I call for a tow, might consider having it towed there.

[Satisaii]

After removing the wiring harnesses and taking out all of the unused wiring (radio, A/C, cruise, and more), it started and ran today. When I had all those wires spread out over the living room, I really thought that it would never run again.

After some thought, I really doubt that this fixed it. Thinking back, it runs fine cold. It does fine under light load cruising. When the temps go up and the load increases it starts to miss until it finally dies out. After some time to cool off, it starts again. I am thinking coil pack failure. Got a spare one I will take with me on the next drive.

[MX-Drew]

Take a close look at the wiring to the injectors, I had a similar problem and I traced it to a broken wire (inside the insulation). With the car running I could move the wire and get a misfire, then move it back and it would run fine, anywhere in between I had a "light" miss.

[Satisaii]

Updating...

I let the car idle up to warm today. As it was doing this I blipped the throttle, and interesting stuff happened.

As the revs fell past 3K rpm, the car turned off. How do I know?

The gauges quit working.
The CEL that is always on (1 code, known problem) goes off.
Massive relay clicking.

And then it turns right back on. This takes less than a second.

Both battery and CEL lights come on.
Relays click.
Guages start to work.
Engine catches.
Battery light turns off.
CEL turns off, but comes right back on (same code as always.)

With the wiring diagram in hand, I trace the circuits that might be responsible. I find that the connector to the switch is loose. I can wiggle it and get the relays to click. I put some dielectric grease on the connector, and that seems to help.

But it does not fix the problem. It is still doing the same thing.

The wiring checks out. That leaves relays and the computer. I found that by knocking on the computer, I could get the relays to click. I pull the computer. Years ago, I had overclocked the computer by replacing the clock chip. I went back to stock sometime later to try and solve a problem (needed to pull codes), and have not messed with it since. When I pulled the cover to the computer off, I found that one of the solder connections I had done on the chip had broken loose.

I think that this was the problem all along. At least I hope. It is no longer dying when I blip the throttle. If it continues with this good behavior, I might actually consider driving it.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

awesome. I love ot when problems are solved. Especially intermittent problems.

[MX-Drew]

That's good news indeed, just go for that long deserved drive.:driving:

[Satisaii]

It seems to run better while driving.

On to the next problem. I must have done something wrong with the installation of the camshaft seals. It seems like both of them are leaking.

[John Miles]

Years ago, I had overclocked the (ECU)...

Well, that's a new one on me, and I can't say that every day.

[Race Grandpa I]

Contact www.panicmotorsports.com

They only deal in Miatas and have a good reputation in the Spec Miata racing circles.

I got an engine from them and I referred another person on this forum to them. They also got a replacement engine from them and were happy.

For me it was worth paying the shipping from the East Coast to know I would get what I paid for.


Tom,

I am courious why you said to stay away from JDM engines.

Also Panic Motorsports might be a good vendor to put on your site. They give great service.

Paul

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Paul,

I have had two experiences with JDM engines. One second hand from a customer and one first hand with Dan's car. The problem appears that Mazda makes these engines for a miriad of applications. They can come off of front wheel drive cars (more likely than coming off a rear wheel drive car). They can come off of automatics or, as we think in Dan's case, a taxicab. They may be perfectly good engines, just set up with the wrong cams, pulleys, etc. They could come from a car that has 30,000 highway miles or 30,000 taxicab miles.

It is simply my humble opinion but, after the headaches we went through with Dan's engine, I'd never touch another one. All I am saying is Caveat Emptor.

[Race Grandpa I]

Tom,

The tuner I went to imports Nissans for the engines and some suspension parts. What they do is cut the car in half and send either the front or both the front and back of the car. Cutting the car in half gets around any issues with importing cars.

Could be something that someone might try with Miatas. However, I understand the Miata JDM engines are pretty scarce.

The guys at TC Motorsports wanted me to buy a JDM engine!!!!!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

All I have is the one first hand bad experience but, for me, one was enough. If Dan sees this thread, I'm sure he will give his 2 cents. All I can add is that we could have bought a brand new engine for what "we" collectively had in that JDM.

[Race Grandpa I]

Terrible experience.

However, that makes me feel better about lucking out and buying the new engine instead of buying a JDM.

This is a rare occurence when it comes to me and the car.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I agree. You were lucky.