New guy here... Got COPs?

[r2t2k2]

Hey all,
I'm relatively new to the Miata and I must say, that it's the first cage (motorcycle term for a car) that I can say gets me excited. So far, I've upgraded the suspension and exhaust. And currently dealing with the drivetrain (ACT clutch and Type II Torsen). Now, I'm looking at getting a wee bit more power outta the 1.8l... After researching 'til my eyes are crossed, I've decided to go the SC route since I'm a torque junkie and TC isn't going to give me the fix I need. It looks like Tom has quite a following and I'm impressed with his response to questions/issues which is a plus for a noob like me. Even if he DID delete my initial registration attempt... :oops:

Any how, I'm assuming that boosted engines will be happier with a better spark and I'm curious as to what the consensus is about COPs. I got a good deal on some Corolla COPs and another wiring harness for the Miata's coils (since I don't wanna butcher wiring when I could build a new harness).

I'm probably gonna be getting the Coldside system since I'm not really interested in monster power. I'd rather have a bit less so I can autocross and it is my DD.

TIA... And Tom, I'll be contacting you once I get back from Utah!

[socal pat]

Well, most people don't want to go through the hassle of building a custom system. I do know if someone manufactured such an animal there would be a market for it. Those who bought the one kit that was sold for a while liked it. No big dyno gains seen, but you can never run too well.

[Joshua F]

I just installed COPS on my '93, but it's running a 2000 engine. It took most of a da to do, nothing difficulty, just took my time to make it look good.

Savington (on Miata.net and Miataturbo.com) is going to be selling PNP kits starting in January. You might want to contact him if you want an easy harness solution.

[99mx5]

I just got my COPS and am waiting on the plugs to build my harness.

[r2t2k2]

I just installed COPS on my '93, but it's running a 2000 engine. It took most of a da to do, nothing difficulty, just took my time to make it look good.

Savington (on Miata.net and Miataturbo.com) is going to be selling PNP kits starting in January. You might want to contact him if you want an easy harness solution.

Yeah, I was following the COP threads over there. That's where I got the particulars for the plugs and whatnot. Building the harness is not an issue... I actually kinda like doing stuff like that!

I just got my COPS and am waiting on the plugs to build my harness.

Ditto kinda... I'm waiting on the COPs and plugs.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

As a lot of you know, we are having a real issue with spammers on the forum. Tightening the reins on them has created grief with new registrations for legitimat people. I'm not sure how to cope and I apologize for the problems Ray encountered. :(

Anyhow, I tried the Toyota COPs nad gave up. They seem to need a change in dwell and have the igniters built in. It would be cool if you could use the igniter assembly from the stock Miata coil and drive the Toyota coil. However, I hfear that the ultimate voltage would be the same as the stock coils or maybe slightly higher. The real answer is how to boost the ignition voltage to a much higher level. Do any of you know what the voltage is when you get done with the Toyota coils? They may be better than stock Miata coils but I would like to know how much better before I jump back in. Otherwise, I would look at the coils from here (http://iscracing.net/whats_new.htm) 36,000 volts or the 50,000 volt ones from MSD (pricey).

[oldtimer02]

Tom will the 1.8 coil kit above work on the '01 -05 cars?

[99mx5]

That kit should work. The install seems to be the same for both, splice wires into the harness.

BTW, all my COP parts arrived today. :)

[99mx5]

SUCCESS!! COP conversion fired right up on first try! :)

Now I have to make a mounting bracket... :D

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

No idea? If Ari says it will, it probably will.

Ari, what all are you doing to run the Toyota COPs? They have built in igniters already. Also, has anyone defined the voltage available? IOW, are they any better than the 01-05 COPs?

Tom will the 1.8 coil kit above work on the '01 -05 cars?

[99mx5]

If you look at the link that Tom posted about the coil kit, there are only 3 wires to splice: 12V, 1,4 trigger and 2,3 trigger. The ground is taken from the mounting. I don't know if it will PHYSICALLY fit all year Miatas because of the PCV valve location. You may also need to remove the shock tower brace for clearance.

Tom, I made a harness for coils 1,4 and another for coils 2,3. I used the dead coils to make plugs for the harnesses to make them plug into the car harness. I only wired up the ground, 12V, and trigger. The car harness has one plug for each factory coil and each plug has 3 connections (12V, Gnd, trigger) I just wired them up and it fired right up.

According to what I read, the Toyota coils allow for a larger plug gap for a bigger spark. I assume this is possible due to higher output voltage than the factory coils.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Where did you find the connectors for the COPs? That was the hard part for me. I wired mine up and it wouldn't even start.

[99mx5]

Toyota P/N 90980-11885 for the coil connectorwww.discounttoyotaparts.com (http://www.discounttoyotaparts.com/)



Tyco P/N 173631 for .070" contacts to fit connectors

http://www.newark.com/tyco-electroni...equestid=97705 (http://www.newark.com/tyco-electronics-amp/173631-1/contact/dp/11H9122?_requestid=97705)


The how to is on mt.net

http://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t12704/


I also have a set of contacts left over. They have to be modded to fit the connector housings.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Those pins snap in and stay in those connectors and those connectors fit the coils? When I bought the recommended pins, they didn't fit the connectors.

[99mx5]

With a simple mod, the pins fit the connectors. A part of the pin must be ground off for the pin to lock in place in the connector. The connector is a perfect fit for the coils.

[socal pat]

Pics please :)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

If anyone is interested, I get brand new sets of the Toyota coils still in the box from time to time. $150 for a set of four. Let me know.

[99mx5]

Here's a pic of the finished install. :)

[Gman7007]

Nice and tidy.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

What are they bolted to?

[99mx5]

I made a mounting plate with bolts to mount the coils. I basically copied the design from the how-to thread.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

How did you get past the problem of reach?

[MX-Drew]

If anyone is interested, I get brand new sets of the Toyota coils still in the box from time to time. $150 for a set of four. Let me know.


Me me me me, how much to ship to the UK? Also can you get the plugs and pins?

Cheers

[99mx5]

How did you get past the problem of reach?

The COPS have a spring-loaded contact for the plug. They are actually a bit longer than required (my COPs came from a 2003 Camry) but they fit perfectly with the mounting plate attached.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Ari, What is the part number on your coils?

Drew, I would guess $40 for shipping? I can just double the order for the connectors and pins. Ari said the part number he had worked great.

[99mx5]

2003 Toyota Camry COP P/N: 90080-19023

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Hmm. The ones the turbo guys talked about to begin with were the 90080-19015. I wonder what the difference is?

[99mx5]

There are many different models that will work, some have the connectors at an angle, others have them flat, some have the mounting tabs at the side, others have them lined up. They all seem to be the same length though. I got my coils off ebay for less than $50 shipped.

[MX-Drew]

I got my coils off ebay for less than $50 shipped.

Sorry Tom may be that is the way to go (Ebay) also as I recall you had some problems getting these to work so knowing my luck they would not work for me either.

[99mx5]

Keep in mind that the average price of used coils goes for around $85 or so. Sometimes you can get lucky and get it cheaper.

[MX-Drew]

Keep in mind that the average price of used coils goes for around $85 or so. Sometimes you can get lucky and get it cheaper.

Good point, but I have to watch the pennies as I'm looking at buying the better half a RX-8 for Christmas. Mind you it will keep her happy for a while :biggrin:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

No problem. I am considering other versions like the AEM as well. I would feel more comfortable if I had a little more engineering data than "it runs". I have seen the 'engineering' that comes from mt.net. If they have no idea what the output boltage is from the setup, I may go with a name brand like AEM or MSD. They post the voltage at ~ 50KV.

Kind of worries me that the best they say about the different part numbers is that they work. None of them seem to know the difference between the different versions. Seems to me that maybe that is why Ari's work and others don't. Different PNs maybe have different voltages and/or different dwells? Maybe his PN works on the CA 99/00 but wont work on the 01-02 or 03-05? Too many unknowns. Keep in mind that Ari is still at ~10PSI. Even the stock coils work there. I am at 18PSI. If I hadn't done a dyno, I would be posting that the stock coils work fine for me as well. It is like the guys who add a exhaust header and then post that their 'butt dtyno' "feels" like 10-15 WHP increase. We've tested whole exhausts on Coldside applications (99-05) and found 0 difference. Of course that was on a real, non-butt, dyno. :)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I found this on mt.net. It leads me to believe they are not yet ready for prime time. This is from one of the experts.

Is your car a 99/00? If so the 99/00 ECU cannot drive 2 COPs at the same time.

I am working on a circuit that will enable the 99/00 ECU to drive the COPs in pairs, and also reduce the dwell to what is required.

The 99/00 dwell times are so long that it will make the COPs run very hot possibly overheating.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Ray,

Back yet?

[Satisaii]

Since I have some time and have some small budget saved up...

I am thinking about changing away from the stock coils. Right now, would you go for the Toyota COP setup on a 99 or the ISCRacing coils?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

ISC Racing doesn't seem to have them on their site. Any specs?

[Satisaii]

http://iscracing.net/whats_new.htm

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The ISC at 36KV is definitely an improvement over stock and the Toyota COPs but that Twin Fire at over 50KV and CDI is definitely enticing. I have been a great fan of CDI since the 60s. I am definitely leaning towards the Twin Fire at the moment.

[Satisaii]

Do you have a link to that one?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Twin Fire Ignition: http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=78

Pencil Coils: http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=123

[Satisaii]

So you would not use the stock coils and the CDI unit? It seems from the instructions that would work.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

You can't as the stock coils have an igniter in them so you would have an igniter firing an igniter firing the coils. Won't work. Actually might be one of those times you would like to have the fire extinguisher handy. :)

[Satisaii]

I might do that with a video camera handy, just to add to the crash and burn fame of the car.

That really drives the budget up by 2X. Makes it a tough call.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Back in 1972 I was working on a project and, as I was waffleing on good parts at one parts and perfect parts a a higher price, a friend my age now (I was 27 at the time) said to me "Anything worth doing is worth doing well". I never forgot that.

[Satisaii]

Any proof that it will work well with a 99 ECU? Longevity? I tired some searching, but did not find much. With stock coil replacements, this would put me over $1K just on the ignition system.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

If it works on James 02,it will work on your 99 ECU. Did you just buy a new Miata coil pack? Is that why you included it in the cost?

[Satisaii]

Nothing recent, just would be total costs spent on the ignition system in 2 years of ownership. I bought a coil pack trying to eliminate a miss that turned out to be the CPS. I probably have 2 good coil packs now (or is that 4?)

With the recent rebuild I am hoping to clear 250 RWHP. We were at 235 with a weak cylinder. At these power levels, I bet there is a real benefit to making a change. IF your machine shop ever cleans up that 150mm pulley we dropped off there, we might see just how much power it could make. But I would never run that on the streets or track. I think it would hurt my repair budget.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I have come to the conclusion that the key to success above 225 is ignition, ignition, ignition. It takes power to make power.

Like Big Gulp with the MSD ignition.

[Satisaii]

I am looking through the instructions on the Twin Fire and was wondering about the wiring to the Maita ECU. They don't seem to cover wasted spark, COP, and no ignitors (or switching from internal ignitors to pencil coils) in the instructions.

So, would you hook up the following:

A. White to IGN 1, Brown/Tan to Coil 1, Blue/Tan to Coil 4
Green to IGN 2, Pink/Orange to Coil 2, Pink/Gray to Coil 3
Ground out Violet and Yellow
Set switch 3 to wasted spark
This would assume that the switch tells Coils 3 and 4 to fire from 2 signals

B. White AND Violet to IGN 1, Brown/Tan to Coil 1, Gray/Pink to Coil 4
Green AND Yellow to IGN 2, Orange/Pink to Coil 2, Blue/Tan to Coil 3
Set switch 3 to wasted spark (or not?)

C. Same as A, but Blue/Tan to Coil 3, Gray/Pink to Coil 4
This would not make sense to me since the Miata fires 1/4, 2/3.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I think you will do it like this drawing with the Brown/Tan paralled to coil 1&4 and Orange/Pink paralled to 2&3.

White to trigger 1, Green to trigger 2, Violet and Yellow to GRND. The rest of the power leads as shown.

Their device is the ignitor.

[Satisaii]

I knew there had to be something else.

And then set switch 3 for wasted spark and switch 1 for digital ECU signal?

I bought this, and the coils. Hope it works.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

James (Lowboy) will have all the answers by the end of the week. He has the ignitor wired in and the Pencil coils are in route.

[Satisaii]

Look at page 16. It seems like this is close to what we are trying here. They seem (to my non EE eye (ok, I really sucked wind hard in my EE class)) to have them hooked up in series on a COP wasted spark set-up. Is this right?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I guess I'll wait until James is done. :)

Sounds like a question for AEM. I'm sure you can ask and they will have a solution.