a few general questions

[calichtr]

Well.... I finally found a car that it looks like I am buying :)
But before I did, I figured I put a few questions to the brain trust.
1) If I am trying to maximize mid range torque, which engine would you say I should start with: 94-97, 99-00 or 01-03

and 1a) given that I am trying to get at least ~170 rwTq, should I go for swapping in some 8.5:1 pistons?

2) What is the most miles on a "well maintained" engine that you would still go "hard" supercharging (again, hoping for ~170+ rwTq and ~220+ rwHp)?

3) And this may seem like an odd question (but check my username ;) )...
...if swap in bigger injectors, will CARB fast forward system still be able to pass smog?
Please don't assume too much, I'm just looking for the answer to the question...obviously some parts will get swapped along the way.

and 3a) to reach my goals, are bigger injectors needed (or highly advised)?

and 3b) how hard (how many hours) to swap injectors?

Thanks in advance,
Bruce

[socal pat]

The injector thing. If you will be staying ~225whp then bigger injectors won't be needed unless you won't be using a 5th inlector (E-cool). In that case you will need to find some engine management that can trim those bigger units at idle and off-boost in general. Swapping injectors is a fairly simple task. An hour or two the first time.

[calichtr]

Thanks Pat.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

99-00 is the best engine for boost.

Probably don't need the 8.8 pistons but lower compression is a good thing. :)

My 99 made it 150,000 miles with 120,000 of those above 200WHP. It would still be tearing up the roads if the oil pump had been changed out at a reasonable time. 150,000 miles is probably a bit much to hope for for the oil pump?

Well, only the 190 WHP and 150Tq setup is CARB approved. Beyond that you are on your own BUT, I wouldn't doubt even the largest pulley setup would pass tailpipe. It is a VERY clean setup.

I'm with Pat. Stock injectors will probably do the job up and including the 115mm pulley (215WHP). After that the 280cc injectors from AZ-TPI for $60 each will be plenty for up to 130mm pulley.

All the 190+WHP kits ship with the high flow fuel rail now. When you swap it in, that is the time to change injectors if you want larger ones as you are 9% of the way there. The stock injectors have to come out to get the new rubber anyhow.

[calichtr]

Thanks Tom, but....
I guess I did not ask some the questions as well as I could have, so please let me try again.
1) I guess this was asked and answered well enough, but it does beg the further question of why is the 99 better? Is it just the better flowing head? The earlier engines had lower compression (9.0 vs. 9.5 I believe) that you say is better - is there something else that I am missing? And please remember, this question is for mid range torque, not max peak HP.

2) I guess to some degree this will always be a crap shoot, and everyone's mileage may vary. I guess I'll just give it a shot and take my chances (the car has 95K miles).

3) Your answer seemed to approach this differently than I am planning. My "plan" is have 2 setups for the car: one to pass smog (and visual inspection) and the other to race and drive to and from races and hopefully appear close enough to legal that it can can pass a cursory field inspection by Johnny L. Also hopefully it won't be too difficult to switch between the 2, but that is all relative and may be the least of the considerations... within reason.
So my question was geared towards, if I changed to bigger injectors (and ecu's) for racing and then put the CARB ecu stuff back in (but left the larger injectors in), then would the oem+carb ecu setup sense and compensate for the bigger injectors and pass the sniffer or not. Based on your (and Pat's) answers, this may be a bit moot (since they don't sound that hard to swap and may not be needed), but I am still curious as to the answer.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

1) It is just my opinion but I think the better flowing head is of more value at these WHp/tq desires than the lower compression pistons. Remember, the torque 'curve' is almost flat across the whole RPM band. It's all about how much air you can flow. You don't 'burn' the fuel, the fuel is there to help you burn the air. The object is to flow as much air as you can and then add the correct amount of fuel to burn it. The "volume" of the added fuel to the "volume" of the air is spit as fuel is considerably heavier than air and the 12:1 ratio is the mass (weight, more or less) of the air to the mass (weight, more or less) of the fuel. 12 pounds of air is a huge volume compared to 1 pound of fuel. The 99/00 head simply allows for more air to flow. I am assuming stock heads in both cases. Both engines have the same displacement so they both have the same amount of space to hold the air we are trying to put in them. What the lower compression pistons bring to the party is a slight edge on avoiding detonation. However, with the Timing Card at only $225 with the kit, you have an inexpensive way to really avoid detonation so I still feel the 99/00 head has the advantage over the 94-97 lower compression. If you were staying with the 190WHP kit, I would simply say it is a wash as we have dyno'd both engines on numerous occassions with basically the same curves. The equalizing factor there being the ability of the MP62 to force the air in at those levels. Even the 01-05 is about the same at that level if you have decent fuel. As the desire for more and more WHP and tq increases, my personal opinion is that the 99-00 engine has the edge.

2) Yep. You never know. You could boost a 5000 mile engine and have it die just as easily as a 100,000 mile engine.

3) I guess that depends on how big the injectors. I would say that up to the 280cc injectors, no problem. Beyond that???

[calichtr]

Thanks Tom, maybe I will look into "sneaking" a 99 head onto the earlier engine. How easy is it to tell (externally) the 99 head from the 94?

And I looked on http://www.aztpi.com for injectors but could not find 280cc's, do you just have to call them? And I saw where stock injectors are 230cc/min, so you are saying the stock ecu + the CARB power card can sense the richness and will compensate the fuel down ~20% at the 2 smog test speeds (as well as not throw a CEL on my drive over)?

[socal pat]

The powercard can't trim fuel down. It can, and does, lengthen the injector pulse to add fuel under boost. The stock ECU handles the duty of trimming the fuel for the bigger injectors. I'm running the Arizona TPI 280 Denso injectors on my '00 along with a Walbro 255 fuel pump and Tom's bigger fuel rail and passed smog. I've heard of the stock ECU trimming fuel for injectors up to 305, but I haven't tried it.

[Satisaii]

I have the 305's on a stock computer 99. It runs way rich at any condition other than WOT, but it does run.

[Steve in VC]

And I looked on http://www.aztpi.com for injectors but could not find 280cc's, do you just have to call them? And I saw where stock injectors are 230cc/min, so you are saying the stock ecu + the CARB power card can sense the richness and will compensate the fuel down ~20% at the 2 smog test speeds (as well as not throw a CEL on my drive over)?
They don't have them on the web, but do sell them to Tom's customers, just call them.

I'm not sure what you mean about midrange torque, but I find I go into boost a bit at low and midrange in normal (not performance) driving. Before, I would down shift, now I add 3 to 5 pounds of boost.

Steve

[chuckerants]

For "only" 170 whp, any 94+ Miata will do as long as it's a 1.8 engine.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

From the outside, I'm not sure? There is probably a number stamped on the head that would be a giveaway but, unfortunately, we dropped my engine off about 100 miles from here yesterday after bring my Miata home. Boy does that engine compartment look empty and neglected. :-(

The intake manifold bolts are in exactly the same place on the early and late heads. Just the ports are relocated. The intake nad exhaust ports are about 1/2 higher on the 99-05 heads than the 94-97 heads.

The stock ECU starts throwing a code at about 20% LTFT. 230 (actually 240 on 99-00) + 20% is about 288. I showed about 17% LTFT with the 280s in my 99. I'm not sure how the guys get away with 305s (27%) and no codes? I'm pretty sure the ECU would not have a problem trimming the 305s but there should be a CEL generated????

You should have no problem with SMOG on the 280s as the ECU can trim them out and not throw a CEL.


Thanks Tom, maybe I will look into "sneaking" a 99 head onto the earlier engine. How easy is it to tell (externally) the 99 head from the 94?

And I looked on http://www.aztpi.com for injectors but could not find 280cc's, do you just have to call them? And I saw where stock injectors are 230cc/min, so you are saying the stock ecu + the CARB power card can sense the richness and will compensate the fuel down ~20% at the 2 smog test speeds (as well as not throw a CEL on my drive over)?

[Satisaii]

I have not looked at the LTFT. I am only getting 2 codes, one for not having the post CAT O2 sensor hooked up, and one for not having the EGR valve hooked up. I also reset the codes and the computer on a very regular basis (disconnect the battery whenever the car is just sitting.) Does this code take time to appear?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I don't think it would take too long to appear? The ECU calculates the LTFT in the first few minutes or even seconds. Just a matter of what it has to trim to get idle back to 14.7. As it has no history, it gets there almost instantly as it is averaging STFT over time and STFT is there instantly and time is 0. I'm surprised.

[Satisaii]

When I was running the stock 99 FPR, I was never running at 14.7 10.7 would be closer to right. And I don't remember getting any codes for it.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Sounds like LTFT just couldn't trim any further. I wonder why no codes?

[calichtr]

So to summarize the answers and address a couple of issues:
1. Tom's guess is the 99-00 is the best stock engine due to the head (and lower C.R. than the 01+)
and 1a. I am inferring that 8.5 might be maybe a bit low of a C.R. to swap in, 8.8 might be better? Or not?
I am also guessing swapping a 99 head onto an earlier motor should help

2. No hard and fast rules for how many miles on an engine is OK, your mileage may vary.

3. Swapping in up to 280cc/min injectors should be able to pass California smog test, although it sounds like it might still run on the rich side. These systems tend to run pretty clean. If you are going to run bigger injectors, you need to call the people at http://www.aztpi.com .
3a. Bigger injectors not needed until you are trying for > ~220whp with a 120+ pulley.
3b. Injectors only take a couple of hours to swap your first time trying for someone of reasonable know-how.

re: Steve in VC - I'm not sure what you mean about midrange torque, but I find I go into boost a bit at low and midrange in normal (not performance) driving. Before, I would down shift, now I add 3 to 5 pounds of boost.

See attached plot - I'd prefer a torque profile like the one I added to Tom's plot even though it would have less peak HP.

re: chuckerants - For "only" 170 whp, any 94+ Miata will do as long as it's a 1.8 engine.

I believe you mis-read. I am talking 170 wTQ, not wHP.

re: telling 99 head from pre-99. Someone told me there is some extra gizmo on the front of the 99 head, can anyone confirm this?

Also, I am guessing LTFT = long term fuel trim?
Anyway, I am guessing from your comments that the 99-00 injectors are 240cc/min vs. the pre-99 are 230cc/min. 240/280=0.857 and 230/280=0.821. So to reach 240cc/min using 280cc/min injectors, the ECU would need to reduce from max flow of 100% by 14.3% and to reach 230cc/min using 280cc/min injectors, the ECU would need to reduce from max flow of 100% by 17.9%.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

1. Yes, the 99-00 heads flow better as the ports enter and exit higher. The 8.8 or 9.0 pistons of the 94-97 era would be better than the 99-00 pistons. I will be using the 8.8 or 9.0 for sure. I "think" I agree, from what I have heard, that 8.5 is getting down where there may be drivability issues? No good data to support that but, unless you are building a drag/race car, there is a CR value you want to stay above. I believe the 8.8s were used in the early automatics. I have recommended to lots of people that an inexpensive but great build would be a good 94-97 9.0 block and a 99-00 head.

2. I agree there as well. An older engine with low miles might actually be worse as that means it was not driven much. These engines were meant to be exercised. A good rule of thumb might be a minimum of 5-7K per year. In other words, a 10 year old engine with 50-70K would be just fine.

3. Yes. The ECU will correct for the 280cc injectors and will run normal emissions.

3a. Correct.

3b. The secret to success with replacing injectors is to replace all new rubber (3 seals/spacers) that comes with my fuel rails now; Put a film of light grease on the top o-ring like lithium grease. Key word here is LIGHT film. The o-rings are rubber and dry and the aluminum is clean and dry and the o-ring will have a tendency to roll, not slide. This causes leaks at the o-ring. The grease lets it slide.

The Coldside will roll in and out of boost at any RPM. That's what makes them so much fun to drive. I have the 6 speed and 3.6 DIFF gears. At 45 MPH in 6th in traffic, I am at about 2000 RPM and I still tend not to downshift to change lanes and pass. :)

As pulley size grows, the low end torque rises with it. Low end torque is a blast to drive too. The problem is, as in the other thread on ignition, the Miata runs out of good spark as pulley and boost increase.

Good point on the heads. The 94-97 heads have the Cam Angke Sensor on the exhaust rear of the head and the 99-00 have the CAS on the intake front of the head. I forgot about that.

LTFT is Long Term Fuel Trim, correct. I am sometimes a lazy typer. :)

The LTFT on my 99 with the 280cc injectors sat right at 17%. 280/240 is 16.67 so that is correct.

[calichtr]

Well, I did finally bought a miata, tho not quite the '99 I was after. I ended up with a 94 M-edition with ABS (and has type 1 torsen, pwr steering, etc.) and 95k miles. So it looks like time to buy one of your systems :)

I will start off with a CARB system for a 94, but I'd like to get to planning on what to do next for racing it - mostly for autox-ing.

If I were to swap a 99 head into my 94, would I need different parts for the FFS S/C, or are they the same system (within a PC-Pro tuning change)?

To go for bigger power (220++WHP) what else should I plan to get? Here is my attempt at a list:
* 2 programmable PC Pro's - please comment on making it simple to swap them in and out. Is there any chance of getting away with only buying one extra PC Pro? Also someone (I think it was Tom) said somewhere that Moss was going to be selling them w/o harness, but I could not find that online.
* Bigger pulley(s) and belt - I am guess a 115mm to start with
* better exhaust
--------------
note: the rules I have heard for exhaust size are:
2-1/4" up to 210HP @ the flywheel (about 180-185 whp)
2-3/8" (60mm) up to 235HP @ the flywheel (about 200-207 whp)
2-1/2" up to 265HP @ the flywheel (about 225-235 whp)
2-3/4" up to 325HP @ the flywheel (about 275-285 whp)
So I am guessing I want 2.5" from header back. I am figuring on compromising and using the CARB legal Racing Beat header, but especially with the new Calif Cat rules, I am not sure how to go from there - suggestions welcomed.
--------------
* selection of gauges - can anybody suggest a good, but reasonably priced set?
* Walbro 190lhp
* some sort of spark enhancement
* are different plugs in order?
* AEM water injection?
* coolant re-route

In post http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11253&postcount=24 Tom said "I think I found a cheap way to retain the low end torque and kill the wasted boost above 15PSI.". Did that ever pan out?

I do have access to 100 octane, should I tune with that and get everything settled and then lower it gradually to Calif's 91, or detune it in some way before sticking in the "cheap" stuff?

Thanks in advance,
Bruce

[Satisaii]

The 94 head has different port locations, so none of the parts would carry over. Some would, but not the intake/ or header.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yep. WOuld require a different Coldside intake manifold. The rest of the Coldside parts would still work.

"In post http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers....3&postcount=24 Tom said "I think I found a cheap way to retain the low end torque and kill the wasted boost above 15PSI.". Did that ever pan out?" Never got it to work right.

[calichtr]

Yep. WOuld require a different Coldside intake manifold. The rest of the Coldside parts would still work.
I was afraid of that.

"In post http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers....3&postcount=24 Tom said "I think I found a cheap way to retain the low end torque and kill the wasted boost above 15PSI.". Did that ever pan out?" Never got it to work right.
Shucks :-( I was afraid of that too.

Any other feedback? I was hoping for some good vendor info since I get the feeling this crowd knows how to squeeze a nickel... and as a Scot, I mean that in the best way possible. :biggrin:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

That Tom guy is the vendor and he is great.


I was hoping for some good vendor info

[calichtr]

That Tom guy is the vendor and he is great.

Silly Tom, of course I am getting the s/c, belts, pulleys... from you. But do you sell anything else besides PC Pros with harness? Speaking of which, in your pricing section you say:
The PC-Pro is no longer available from Fast Forward Superchargers without the harness. Moss will be selling PC-Pros without a harness shortly and you will be able to purchase it from them. The price for the PC-Pro from Fast Forward Superchargers is $500 pre-programmed and pre-wired to a plug in harness.

Is THIS (http://www.miatamania.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=52253) what you were referring to?
- doesn't say "Pro"
- doesn't mention harness... so I guess you don't get one
And what about the other items?

(and now I am wondering if I'll be risking it and going for a 99 head now and get the S/C to match, or "just" get the version for the 94 :confused: )

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Sometimes I simply fall into that 'silly' mode. :)

We only sell the PC-Pro for engine management and we only sell it on harnesses. Looks like Moss doesn't sell them at all except with their kits. We now have them on hotsides, turbos and JR M45 kits with great results.

No, that is the old PowerCard. Not even close to the power/control of the PC-Pro. Which 'other items'?

If I were you, I would make the head decision before ordering the kit. You can buy a good used head for the price of the Coldside Intake Manifold. We seem to basically make the same or nearly the same power with either head up to the 115mm pulley. So it doesn't seem to make any difference, After that, I think the 99/00 would be the better choice.

[calichtr]

Sometimes I simply fall into that 'silly' mode. :)
Good :) The world need more silliness.

We only sell the PC-Pro for engine management and we only sell it on harnesses. Looks like Moss doesn't sell them at all except with their kits. We now have them on hotsides, turbos and JR M45 kits with great results.

No, that is the old PowerCard. Not even close to the power/control of the PC-Pro. Which 'other items'?
Actually, I called them this morning and while at first they said they did not think it was for sale, he asked how many cylinders and then came back and said they were available for 4 cylinders & were in stock for $400.
I still wonder for trying to reach 220-240whp, can you get by with 1 CARB powercard and 1 unlimited PC Pro?

If I were you, I would make the head decision before ordering the kit. You can buy a good used head for the price of the Coldside Intake Manifold. We seem to basically make the same or nearly the same power with either head up to the 115mm pulley. So it doesn't seem to make any difference, After that, I think the 99/00 would be the better choice.
When you say either head makes the same, do you mean either motor (i.e. 9:1 compression with older (worse) head VS 9.5:1 with 99 (better) head). And yes it looks like what I'd want would be 94 motor with 99 head, but after researching the head swap, it looks fairly involved and violates my "reasonably easy to switch stuff back to Calif legal" rule. :-( It looks like I'll be stuck going with the 94 head).

As for "Which 'other items'?" I am referring to:
* better exhaust
* selection of gauges - can anybody suggest a good, but reasonably priced set?
* Walbro 190lhp
* some sort of spark enhancement
* are different plugs in order?
* AEM water injection?
* coolant re-route
Although after researching more:
# you (Tom) don't seem to think better exhaust (at least header back) is worth it for 200whp or less (not sure about the 220-240 range though)
# you all seem to be working on a spark enhancement solution, so maybe I'll wait on that
# you (Tom) aren't convinced about W.I.
# coolant re-route is presumably just local auto parts place pieces
So that leaves:
* recommended header for a 94 (and vendor) .. I am guessing Goodwin (http://www.good-win-racing.com/Mazda-Performance-Part/11-1024.html)
* manuf & vendor for gauges
* rec'd vendor for Walbro 190
* and not so much a vendor issue, but do the higher HP apps need a different spark plug?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Answers are inter-dispersed.


Good :) The world need more silliness.

Amen


Actually, I called them this morning and while at first they said they did not think it was for sale, he asked how many cylinders and then came back and said they were available for 4 cylinders & were in stock for $400.

That is news to me. I was under the impression that I was it for PC-Pros? Maybe TDR too but I don't think he is doing software changes? But I didn't think Moss was into making the different software setups for the different applications.

I still wonder for trying to reach 220-240whp, can you get by with 1 CARB powercard and 1 unlimited PC Pro?

Not sure what you mean there. The PC-Pro is the same whether CARB or not. CARB is just locked with no adjustments. Only takes one to run the engine injectors. We use a second one to run the 5th injector.

When you say either head makes the same, do you mean either motor (i.e. 9:1 compression with older (worse) head VS 9.5:1 with 99 (better) head). And yes it looks like what I'd want would be 94 motor with 99 head, but after researching the head swap, it looks fairly involved and violates my "reasonably easy to switch stuff back to Calif legal" rule. :-( It looks like I'll be stuck going with the 94 head).

I mean that we make basically the same power on a 94-97 as we do on the 99-00 with the same pulley ratio.

As for "Which 'other items'?" I am referring to:
* better exhaust JR or RB is all I know that are out there for the 94-97
* selection of gauges - can anybody suggest a good, but reasonably priced set? AEM UEGO Wideband. AutoMeter Vacuum/Boost
* Walbro 190lhp or the Walbro 255 whichever you find at a good price
* some sort of spark enhancement Only if you are headed above the 115mm pulley. Then consider the AEM or MSD
* are different plugs in order? New plugs come with the kit
* AEM water injection?
* coolant re-route
Although after researching more:
# you (Tom) don't seem to think better exhaust (at least header back) is worth it for 200whp or less (not sure about the 220-240 range though)

The 99-05 are OK with the stock exhaust manifold. Pre-99 will pick up power with a good exhaust header.

# you all seem to be working on a spark enhancement solution, so maybe I'll wait on that

Stock ignition works great on the stock kit and seems to be OK up to 115mm pulley IF the coils are good.

# you (Tom) aren't convinced about W.I.

1) WI is great and offers better cooling than E-Cool (5th injector). My problem with oit was that every time I wanted to spank some Mustang, I was out of water and got serious knock. There are 12.7 gallons of fuel on board and only 3/4 gallon of water. 2) Water doesn't burn. 3) the people with full ECUs and WI make no more power than the kit with ECool. 4) Water doesn't burn.

# coolant re-route is presumably just local auto parts place pieces
So that leaves:
* recommended header for a 94 (and vendor) .. I am guessing Goodwin (http://www.good-win-racing.com/Mazda-Performance-Part/11-1024.html)
* manuf & vendor for gauges
* rec'd vendor for Walbro 190
* and not so much a vendor issue, but do the higher HP apps need a different spark plug?

[calichtr]

That is news to me. I was under the impression that I was it for PC-Pros? Maybe TDR too but I don't think he is doing software changes? But I didn't think Moss was into making the different software setups for the different applications.
I'm only reporting. HERE (http://www.powercardtuning.com/products/powercardpro/index.aspx) is the link, tho it doesn't say for sale yet.
Question about your comment: do they or do you do the software setup for your systems?

Not sure what you mean there. The PC-Pro is the same whether CARB or not. CARB is just locked with no adjustments. Only takes one to run the engine injectors. We use a second one to run the 5th injector.
I understand; what I am asking is whether I can get away with one of the fixed ones and swap the other fixed one with an adjustable one. In other words, does one of them stay close enough to the same so that you can be cheap and do most of the tuning with the other.

I mean that we make basically the same power on a 94-97 as we do on the 99-00 with the same pulley ratio.
But is that with tuning each to their respective max's at the pulley size or are you talking about just sticking on the (basically equivalent) parts and dyno-ing to check power?

re: gauges
AEM UEGO Wideband. AutoMeter Vacuum/Boost
Don't bother with an EGT, Knock Sensor, Oil Temp, ...?

Only if you are headed above the 115mm pulley
So it seems like if you want simple extra power, stick to 115 pulley, adjustable PC Pro(s), (fuel pump?), and don't worry, be happy? :party:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I'm only reporting. HERE (http://www.powercardtuning.com/products/powercardpro/index.aspx) is the link, tho it doesn't say for sale yet.
Question about your comment: do they or do you do the software setup for your systems?

That is the link from Dobeck for dealers for the bikes, snowmobile and ATV dealers to call about. Moss has the exclusive for cars and Dobeck has everything else.

I understand; what I am asking is whether I can get away with one of the fixed ones and swap the other fixed one with an adjustable one. In other words, does one of them stay close enough to the same so that you can be cheap and do most of the tuning with the other.

The 5th injector card doesn't really vary. It is almost the same code for all cars and all applications. The main card is what we typically tune with, with very few exceptions.

But is that with tuning each to their respective max's at the pulley size or are you talking about just sticking on the (basically equivalent) parts and dyno-ing to check power?

re: gauges
Don't bother with an EGT, Knock Sensor, Oil Temp, ...?

So it seems like if you want simple extra power, stick to 115 pulley, adjustable PC Pro(s), (fuel pump?), and don't worry, be happy? :party:

Yep, the 115 is fun without losing the feel of the Miata. Not sure if anybody is running EGT gauges? WB A/F seems to fill the need. If you go with EGT for "safety", you really need four of them.

I have my opinion of knock sensors and the Timing Card we sell. Here's how a knock sensor works. Piston comes up on a power stroke. Knock occurs. Possibly knock serious enough to destroy the engine. Knock sensor sees it and, on the NEXT power stroke, pulls a couple degrees of timing to try and avoid a second occurrance. The timng card, on the other hand, is set ahead of time to pull timing in those areas that knock could occur and, at the loss of a few HP for safety, pulls it all the time. If set right, knock never occurs and all is well. For those days when you are running good fuel, reduce the retard with the push of a couple buttons. For those hot summer days when you get a tank of bad gas, add a couple degrees of retard and keep on going.

Oil Temp would be nice to have but I have made it 124,000 miles at 200+WHP without it and no problem so far. Rather than pay the price for an oil temp gauge, invest the same dollars in a oil cooler and forget about it.

[calichtr]

That is the link from Dobeck for dealers for the bikes, snowmobile and ATV dealers to call about. Moss has the exclusive for cars and Dobeck has everything else. I dunno, if you go to the Powercard page for cars HERE (http://www.powercardtuning.com/products/cars/index.aspx) it has a PowerCard Pro link to the site I showed above... and at the bottom of the cars page it says ...

Please note: PowerCard is currently available only for 4-cylinder applications, 6 and 8 cylinder versions are coming soon. This product is not emissions legal or CARB approved.

Maybe it was a limited time exclusive.

[Gman7007]

That blurb has been on that page for quite sometime now. I would not put much faith in it. Tom's the man for the programmable version.