Tom's New Engine

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

OK, I would love to have your input on this new build. I will lay out my current thoughts and PLEASE speak up. As a lot of you know, I built an engine a few years back with Wiseco Pistons, Carrillo rods, 1mm oversized valves, heavy valve springs, titanium keepers and a few other things. The ONLY part I didn't like was the Wiseco pistons as they consumed oil when off boost. They have a high coefficient of thermal expansion and get kind of loose in the cylinder when cold/cool (like cruising down the highway for long trips and I am prone to long trips. :)). When On boost, I think you could run the 24 hours at LeMans and not burn a drop of oil as they would get hot and stay hot. Don't get me wrong. They are great pistons. Just not for me. ZDifferent strokes for different folks, as they say.

Anyhow, I also did not have the head "properly" done with a flow bench and port and polish, etc. This time around, I intend to give that job to Robello and let them do the deed. We have a base kit on one of their engines and it hauls butt. I understand at somewhat reduced boost as well. we also had to add fuel so I amguessing it flows air like a well done head should flow air.

The block , on the other hand, is going to be KISS. I am thinking a 01-05 block with the crank cradle. Anybody know which year they added the cradle?? I am considering stock rods and stock 9:1 pistons. That may sound stupid (second "S" in KISS :)) but I had 150,000 miles of no problems with stock pistons and rods? Hard to beat success. Those pistons took a LOT of knock as well during hundreds of dyno runs testing new ideas. Not all of those ideas went without serious knock. Keith (dyno owner) would look at me frequently with a scowl and say "if that was a Mustang, the pistons would be done". On the other hand, if I ever decide to go back and try 8000/8500 RPM, now would be the time for Carrillo (or other) rods and forged pistons. :) I have heard from several people that the JE pistons are near the same thermal coefficient of expansion and would be the best choice. Suggestions?

If you were building the engine and $$ was not an object, what would you do? Just remember, lots of suggestions will be made and yours may not be taken. Please don't be upset if that occurs. I kept the first engine dead stock so that all tests would be like my customer setups. We now have a kit that meets all of those needs, I believe, so it is time to play.

Ignition will be MSD or AEM or ? (I am leaning towards AEM at the moment) but it WILL be CDI in any case. The new electric YoYo runs off the principles of CDI and that is where it's at. That, IMHO, is the only way to go for high power/RPM.

I think it is possible to make 250-275WHP on this engine and still drive like stock. Especially if we up the RPM rev limit. There is a LOT of HP up there.

OK. There's my 2¢ worth. I would guess it will be April/May before I let the build order go as I want to take my time and do it right.

Thanks.

[Satisaii]

What are you going to do for an ECU?

I would be tempted to go for more cubic inches. Other than that, I like it. Ok, maybe one of the new Eaton chargers. But that really is not the engine build.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I think 1mm oversized pistons get me close to 1900cc. Stroker?

ECU, I would like to add 4 additional injectors. One in each runner and run them with the PC-Pro. It has the technology to do that. They would actually sync with the stock injectors and only come on in boost. Probably (?) still need the 5th injector back at the blower for cooling?

AND BILLET OIL PUMP. DOH!!! :)

[Elphaba]

:devil: JDM ALL THE WAY! :stuart: OH! and dont forget the Megasquirt...

[Elphaba]

:tongue: Tom's gonna kill me... Heh. Seriously, Id do the carrillo rods just incase you decide you really want to go for 8 grand, easyer to put em in in the begining... Was'nt their a billet oil pump vendor on m.net a while back?

[MX-Drew]

Hi Tom,

The cradle you reffer to, is that the plate that goes on the main bearings? if so it can be added to any NB engine although it was fitted standard (stock) on the NB/FL or as it is called here the MK2.5.
I will double check that with my tame Mazda technican.
What camshafts are you going with? if stock then stock timing gear otherwise may be adjustable timing gear might be an idea.

[socal pat]

Hey Tom, if you are going to allow for higher RPM's then you might want to replace valve springs. The last time we spoke you didn't say "money is no object". In that case get the rods. If nothing else they'll reduce rotating mass and weight. Also I'd go with the JE's and the good oil pump gears.

Oh and of course you'll need to keep E-cool otherwise it won't be a Fastforward ;)

[Satisaii]

So you will modify the stock ecu for higher RPM operation? I think that really reduces the reasons to keep it.

I would also go dry sump with an external pump.

[Steve in VC]

If you plan on increasing the rev limiter, I would suggest stronger rods for that sudden turn around at the top. I don't know enough about the wrist pin strength on stock versus performance pistons.

Does anyone know the plus or minus of ceramic coatings? The combustion chamber (piston, valve, and head) for heat, and the cylinder walls for reduced friction.

Do you plan on using VVT?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Darn. I can never find that 'delete' button when I need it. :(

:devil: JDM ALL THE WAY! :stuart: OH! and dont forget the Megasquirt...

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Hmm. Then I could simply start over with a good 99 engine and add the cradle. I would appreciate it if you could confirm that.

Hi Tom,

The cradle you reffer to, is that the plate that goes on the main bearings? if so it can be added to any NB engine although it was fitted standard (stock) on the NB/FL or as it is called here the MK2.5.
I will double check that with my tame Mazda technican.
What camshafts are you going with? if stock then stock timing gear otherwise may be adjustable timing gear might be an idea.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

OK for the Rods and oil pump then. Do most of you think the JE are the way to go for pistons. Carrillo over other rods? "H" beam version?

Hey Tom, if you are going to allow for higher RPM's then you might want to replace valve springs. The last time we spoke you didn't say "money is no object". In that case get the rods. If nothing else they'll reduce rotating mass and weight. Also I'd go with the JE's and the good oil pump gears.

Oh and of course you'll need to keep E-cool otherwise it won't be a Fastforward ;)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I am not sure about the high RPM version. I did that back when I had the other built engine. It ran like crap off boost. I might simply pick up a second ECU for track time with the Rev limit raised. I just don't want to spend the rest of my life making a full ECU run off boost as I spend 95% of the time in my car off boost. On the other hand, we are possibly looking to make this a track car and move on to the NC Coldside development. Now you see why I may take a month or two to make up my mind on details. Good thing about the ECU is that it is external to the engine so I can do that at any time. On the third hand :) we are also looking to work on running four extra injectors in sync with the mains for some of the other kist we want to develop and still be able to make CARB. That brings us back to the PC-Pro. On that development topic, we hope to have a really good engineer on board by mid year and our own building with a dyno so we can do the development we have wanted to. I'm drifting this thread but :) S2K Coldside is back on the list again 300WHP CARB is the goal.

Do you have any links for the dry sump?

So you will modify the stock ecu for higher RPM operation? I think that really reduces the reasons to keep it.

I would also go dry sump with an external pump.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The company I owned in MIchigan was for the Aerospace industry and the production of TBC's (Thermal Barrier Coatings) for the Jet turbine industries. I know a bit about it for that industry but not sure they do it the same for automotive? For the Aerospace engines, we put the parts in a high temperature furnace (1800-2000F) and applied the proper gasses like H2 for cover and then H2+AlCl2 for the Alumina coatings. Other ceramic coatings were pretty hush hush (like garnet, ruby, etc). Well, garnet and Alumina are basically the same thing but slightly different? If you have any links on ceramic coatings for automotive engines, please post them.

For reduced friction, you would use the Titanium coatings like Titanium Nitride, the ceramics are basically TBC's. Keep the heat in the cylinder where it makes power and out of the walls where it is simply wasted to the oil and water. They do it for the jet engines so they can run the combustion heat at or above the temperature where the parts would lose strength as they run a coupe hundred degrees cooler than the combustion heat a couple thousanths of an inch away. These are the same coatings used on some tools (carbide and steel) for the same reasons. In their case, they will lay down alumina on the substrate to keep the tool cool and Titanium Nitride (TiN), for example, on top for lubricity.

But I digress. :)


If you plan on increasing the rev limiter, I would suggest stronger rods for that sudden turn around at the top. I don't know enough about the wrist pin strength on stock versus performance pistons.

Does anyone know the plus or minus of ceramic coatings? The combustion chamber (piston, valve, and head) for heat, and the cylinder walls for reduced friction.

Do you plan on using VVT?

[Satisaii]

I was thinking that if money is no object, then I would do a stroker motor with a dry sump. If a dry sump actually exists for the Miata, I don't know.

The Dynapack dyno probably could be set up at home. Are thinking about opening a shop?

I am not sure about the S2000 market anymore. There seems to be too many offerings and not as many buyers. Yet with the economy, the prices are dropping and more of the Fast and Furious kids are getting the cars. Maybe they will spend some money on a kit? Also Honda has announced that 2009 is it for the car.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Is anybody other than FM doing a stroker crank? Seems to me that the only modified pistons for the stroker crank are the Wisecos? If so, not me.

Mark Dobeck is the man that brought the DynoJet to the world. He sold DynoJet off a couple years back and now is finishing a new dyno. I think I can work a deal on one of those. I just want something simple. We can always run up to AZ DynoChip for final numbers. I still like the DJ for numbers as they are consistant here and everywhere.

My thought is that now is the time to get the right kit into the S2K market for the reason you said. They are starting to get older and cheaper. We will have to study that before we jump in but there are a couple other markets I would like to explore as well.

Do you think S2K ever hit 100,000 units total built? Their numbers were pretty small. I did see that this was the last year. Sometimes one gets lucky though and that same engine is used in something new?

[Satisaii]

A dyno will still require a shop. I think your neighbors would get tired of all-day WOT blasts. But then a shop in Coolidge with a dyno may be cheaper than putting another of Keith's kids through Yale.

World wide S2000 sales did make it through 100,000 cars. You do have 3 distinct engine variations to deal with, though. And that engine is only used in the S2000. Anything similar to it would be in a FWD application.

If you really want another engineer working on a project, I would be happy to volunteer. My current job is so slow that I have some spare time, and Southwest has cheap fares to Phoenix. And I would be happy to lend my S2000 to the cause.

[Steve in VC]

The company I owned in MIchigan was for the Aerospace industry and the production of TBC's (Thermal Barrier Coatings) for the Jet turbine industries. I know a bit about it for that industry but not sure they do it the same for automotive?
My understanding is the coating reduces the transfer of heat to the pistons, block, and valves, and keeps heat in the burned gas, thus increases pressure (torque).

What I don't know is does that increase in gas temp increase detonation.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

LOL. Yes, a shop. LOL

I had enough trouble with the HOA with the two boys two doors down who were building cars in the garage. Welders, grinders, etc. Lots of cars during the night. Then, voila, disappeared in the night. Drugs too? Ya think??? :)

There are several vacant shops in town. Brand new and AC'd. My kind of shop.

I think I have already paid for Keith's DynoJet. There is a good used DJ for sale up in Mesa that I could have almost for pennies. But I think I would rather take on Mark's new design. He has one for bikes as well.

The Coldside I designed will work with the different engines, if I understand the S2K. The heads/ports stayed the same through at least a couple of them and the blocks/CR changed. But, let's leave that for another thread. :) We might take you up on the donor S2K. Might swap back a 300WHP Coldside? But, let's leave that for another thread as well. Where's that icon for drift? :) :offtopic:


A dyno will still require a shop. I think your neighbors would get tired of all-day WOT blasts. But then a shop in Coolidge with a dyno may be cheaper than putting another of Keith's kids through Yale.

World wide S2000 sales did make it through 100,000 cars. You do have 3 distinct engine variations to deal with, though. And that engine is only used in the S2000. Anything similar to it would be in a FWD application.

If you really want another engineer working on a project, I would be happy to volunteer. My current job is so slow that I have some spare time, and Southwest has cheap fares to Phoenix. And I would be happy to lend my S2000 to the cause.

[Satisaii]

Just a little more drift, but maybe pertinent to your build...

When do you think you will have some time off from the Yo-Yo business? I will get the AEM CDI parts next week. It may be "fun" (lol) to drive the Miata out there for some testing on that set-up (if I can afford it... I blew the budget for next month just buying the things.)

[MX-Drew]

I might as well add to the drift, do you need an IT / electronics designer in your new shop? I'm still trying to find a way of getting out there. :grouphug:

[tann3r]

I'll steer this back on track a little. The main bearing support started on 01 cars and can be fitted to any 1.8L. You do need the 01+ oil pan as well.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The boss (#2 son www.yoyofactory.com) is off to Toy Fair week after next. While the boss is away, the mice can play. Lots of bedrooms and the garage is empty. Just delivered Danny's kit to Mike's Place about an hour ago and the one to Austria leaves Monday/Tuesday. I get the pre-production parts tonight (maybe) and should have it ready to fly (minor software change) by the end of the week. Sounds like next weekend I am open for a few days and we could play and I would love to play with the AEM. Let me know how that works?


Just a little more drift, but maybe pertinent to your build...

When do you think you will have some time off from the Yo-Yo business? I will get the AEM CDI parts next week. It may be "fun" (lol) to drive the Miata out there for some testing on that set-up (if I can afford it... I blew the budget for next month just buying the things.)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I have already settled on the who. He is just waiting for the "pack your bags" email. He is really automotive, mechanical and tuner type person. I don't think anybody will be surprised. So it's just a matter of when I can pull it together. As the yoyo is worth 7 figure numbers this year alone to me, it controls the when. I think all of this will break by the end of March? The big players are all at Toy Fair but they are selling and the time to get with them is after. I am too late for the before. :(

You blew your opportunity. They finally sold the house next door. ;)

Now, back to the engine. :)

EDIT: Just so you get a feel for the toy industry, in 1998 we sold an $8 yoyo worldwide and sold roughly 12 million pieces. That's $96M in one year. About 25% of that went to the UK, BTW. We were shipping 1/2 ton of them every day air freight to the UK alone. 5 days a week. 3/4 ton to Tokyo every day. This yoyo will sell for $30 (I hope we can keep it down to that) If it just sells 25% of the ProYo sales this year, that would be 3M pieces or $90M retail. That is why my company is KnackToys, BTW. However, my passion is with the Miatas and that is where I want to spend my time after this hump. There is another non toy, non automotive patent I am working on and, hopefully, that will also take shape over the next year. :)


I might as well add to the drift, do you need an IT / electronics designer in your new shop? I'm still trying to find a way of getting out there. :grouphug:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Thanks. I was just at Mike's dropping off a kit and he told me that it was 01-05 and would fit all of the 1.8s but failed to mention the oil pan. His suggestion on the cradle was just get one from Mazda. Must not be too expensive. I thought about starting with an 01-05 engine but I think I really don't want the head. Best to start with what I want which is the 99/00 and add the cradle and pan.

I'll steer this back on track a little. The main bearing support started on 01 cars and can be fitted to any 1.8L. You do need the 01+ oil pan as well.

[BlownMX5]

Hey Tom, my motor has Carrillo h-beam rods and JE pistons. The rods are stroker rods (+8 mm) and the pistons are custom with the pin-to-piston top distance reduced by 8 mm. I have a stock crank. The result is the same CR but improved rod/stroke ratio. The stock 1.8 has a rod/stroke ratio of 1.56:1. Mine is 1.65:1, closer to the "ideal" 1.75:1 ratio. My engine builder had JE make the pistons and they didn't charge extra, somehow.

Those pistons do make quite a bit of noise when cold, that's for sure. But, I don't notice any additional oil consumption, although this is a dedicated track car so it's not an issue anyway. At least I know they're strong.

Pat.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Now I am thoroughly confused. You can't stroke an engine without re-grinding the crank to create the stroke offset, can you??? It's the crank that creates the stroke increase. The rods and pistons only correct so the piston gets back up to the top of the cylinder. The rods need to be longer and the pistons end up with the wrist pin raised. The Wisecos actually have the wrist pin in the bottom ring groove, I believe. :confused:


Hey Tom, my motor has Carrillo h-beam rods and JE pistons. The rods are stroker rods (+8 mm) and the pistons are custom with the pin-to-piston top distance reduced by 8 mm. I have a stock crank. The result is the same CR but improved rod/stroke ratio. The stock 1.8 has a rod/stroke ratio of 1.56:1. Mine is 1.65:1, closer to the "ideal" 1.75:1 ratio. My engine builder had JE make the pistons and they didn't charge extra, somehow.

Those pistons do make quite a bit of noise when cold, that's for sure. But, I don't notice any additional oil consumption, although this is a dedicated track car so it's not an issue anyway. At least I know they're strong.

Pat.

[BlownMX5]

The motor isn't stroked. The increased rod length is offset by the shorter pistons. Same displacement, same CR, same stroke length only a better rod/stroke ratio meaning that the rod angle is more vertical than stock when the crank journal is at it's most horizontal position. Supposedly, this reduces the force against the cylinder wall and also changes the piston velocity at each end of the stroke a bit.

ratio = rod length / stroke.

stock: 132.90 / 85 = 1.56
mine: 140.90 / 85 = 1.65

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Ah. Now I understand. Thanks.

If I understand correctly, the wrist pin being in the last ring groove is OK as that is the oil wipe ring and doesn't need to seal, correct?

[BlownMX5]

That must be right, but I'm not sure. Let me give my engine guy a call.

[MX-Drew]

Thanks. I was just at Mike's dropping off a kit and he told me that it was 01-05 and would fit all of the 1.8s but failed to mention the oil pan. His suggestion on the cradle was just get one from Mazda. Must not be too expensive. I thought about starting with an 01-05 engine but I think I really don't want the head. Best to start with what I want which is the 99/00 and add the cradle and pan.

Just to confirm this, the cradle is bolted to the main bearing caps, these have tapped holes in just for these bolts and Mazda started fitting these to the NB/FL enginges so you could not use a 99 motor unless you drilled and tapped these holes in the bearing caps and even then I don't know if they are the right shape to enable that. The cradle was fitted to vars with VIN 200001. Well that is what my tame Mazda technical says.

[MX-Drew]

:)I have already settled on the who. He is just waiting for the "pack your bags" email. He is really automotive, mechanical and tuner type person. I don't think anybody will be surprised. So it's just a matter of when I can pull it together. As the yoyo is worth 7 figure numbers this year alone to me, it controls the when. I think all of this will break by the end of March? The big players are all at Toy Fair but they are selling and the time to get with them is after. I am too late for the before. :(

You blew your opportunity. They finally sold the house next door. ;)

Now, back to the engine. :)

EDIT: Just so you get a feel for the toy industry, in 1998 we sold an $8 yoyo worldwide and sold roughly 12 million pieces. That's $96M in one year. About 25% of that went to the UK, BTW. We were shipping 1/2 ton of them every day air freight to the UK alone. 5 days a week. 3/4 ton to Tokyo every day. This yoyo will sell for $30 (I hope we can keep it down to that) If it just sells 25% of the ProYo sales this year, that would be 3M pieces or $90M retail. That is why my company is KnackToys, BTW. However, my passion is with the Miatas and that is where I want to spend my time after this hump. There is another non toy, non automotive patent I am working on and, hopefully, that will also take shape over the next year. :)

I just need someone to say they are going to employ me then I can get my green card. I'm sure there must be house for sale over there somewhere.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It gets deeper and deeper, doesn't it? Maybe I should look for a 01-05 block? Cheaper in the long run?


Just to confirm this, the cradle is bolted to the main bearing caps, these have tapped holes in just for these bolts and Mazda started fitting these to the NB/FL enginges so you could not use a 99 motor unless you drilled and tapped these holes in the bearing caps and even then I don't know if they are the right shape to enable that. The cradle was fitted to vars with VIN 200001. Well that is what my tame Mazda technical says.

[tann3r]

This should clear things up a little.

http://www.solomiata.com/MBSP.html

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Cool. Thanks.

One more question (and I'll bet there will be mre after that), that synopsis talks about the earlier windage tray needing to be removed to acommodate the Girdle, does the 01-05 pan still have the windage tray or is is that you get one or the other?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

BTW, Mike said he'd bet it was something other than the oil pump that died and killed oil pressure. His feeling is there is none better than the stock oil pump and is not keen on the billit pumps. He also wants to do an autopsy on my engine when it gets back from being fitted into the Bugeye.

What else would take oil pressure to 0?

[Satisaii]

Broken pick-up.
Massive leak.
Very low on oil.
Or something else breaking that allows the oil to flow freely back inside the engine.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I can confirm that I had measured oil that morning and it was right up to the fill line. Afterward destruction I measured and still there. So plenty of oil and no leaks. The broken pickup is a possibility. Hadn't thought of that.

[Satisaii]

I have been thinking about that pick-up since I rebuilt my engine. I noticed that the attachment point on the windage tray was broken when I was re-assemling. Instead of doing something smart (like replacing the tray) I just left the pick-up attached only to the pump. I have been a tiny bit worried about it ever since. I will be interested to see what actually failed in yours.

Another possibility is that the bolts holding the tube on worked loose.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

well, if it turns out to be something like that, I might just stay with a stock oil pump. It did real well for a LONG time. :)

I'll get the engine to Mike's as soon as Hans is done measuring. Now I am curious as well. I just 'Assumed' oil pump failure as it happened instantly.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

A couple suggestions if money is no object (I like that :biggrin:):

1) Stroker crank - displacement is your friend. That's basically free power from an engineering perspective (not money related :biggrin:). If you gain 10% more displacement that means you should see about 10% more power at the same boost level, assuming the headflow isn't restrictive. That's easily 20-25hp at these power levels.

2) Cams - normally aspirated the stock cams make power peak around 6200-6300 rpm. That explains why we see a fairly marked rise in boost on supercharged setups over 6000rpm. What is happening is the engine VE is dropping rapidly at this point whereas the blower is happily keeping a pretty steady VE. The engine is becoming the bottleneck. Since the Coldside seems to be especially happy at high rpm and I agree that raising the redline is going to be where the power is at, rather than going all out boost. In other words, I think that even with stock cams and even the base 105mm pulley you would see more rwhp with the rev limit being raised up to say 7500 or even 8000rpm. Anyway, on top of that, imagine the further increase in power (and lowering of boost and heat at high rpm) with cams that make power peak, normally aspirated, at about say 7000rpm rather than 6200rpm? I think you would see a very healthy increase in top end power without sacrificing lowend since the blower beautifully fills in the low and midrange anyway. The key with the cams is not to go too far so that off boost driveability suffers.

3) Engine management. I won't say jump to standalone right away, but with a change in cams you will probably need a change in the tuning throughout the entire load and rpm on the engine. Additionally, I think an 8000rpm rev limit, or however high you can go with the forged rods/pistons/stronger valve springs/etc will be key. For this you may need a standalone. Especially, say, if the engine is built for 9000rpm. Hey, you said money is no object :devil2:

4) If an EM is used that can control the cam advance, the '01+ head may turn out to be beneficial for high rpm power. In other words, what used to be the enemy when it comes to boost, may be your friend. Can't say if I would recommend it as it would be a test, but it would be a thought. The thing to consider in all of this is that with the combination of a change in cams, pistons and possible cam advance/retard, avoiding piston to valve contact (and ensuring it through careful measurements during the build process) will become a factor. With a higher lift/duration cam grind and the ability to change the cam advance with the click of a mouse or button, avoiding this very unhealthy situation :) will become a design issue.

Bill

[calichtr]

Sorry to follow up Bill's informative post with mine, but...

I am by absolutely NO means even remotely an expert in this field, but I thought I remembered from long long ago that you didn't want to polish an force inducted motor's head, something about mixing. Is this maybe all pre-fuel injectors thinking?

Re: ceramic coated pistons
I forget now where I saw these guys advertised (R&T, MT, SCCA rags, etc) but Swain seems to have a long history
http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10300
Sorry, but I don't have any experience with them
S2K Coldside is back on the list again 300WHP CARB is the goal.
DO'OH!!! No good (CARB legal) boosting alternatives for the S2K is why I didn't go that route.

and lastly...
Hey BlownMX5, I didn't realize s/c was allowed in CSP (from your cardomain site) ;)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

1) am I stuck with FM and Wiseco for the parts? When you do 1mm over pistons, you are already gaining on 1900cc if memory serves me without doing the math (your job :)). If so, the stroker adds 100cc or 5%. Stock is 1835 if I recall. Yes, I know, "There is no replacement for displacement" is the old phrase.

2) I agree about the cams. I just don't know who or where. It's all about letting the engine breathe. More flow, less boost. However, I would still like it to drive like a normal Coldside Miata off boost.

3) I'll do it with the PC-Pro or die trying. ;)

4) I still would like it to drive like a normal Coldside Miata off boost.


A couple suggestions if money is no object (I like that :biggrin:):

1) Stroker crank - displacement is your friend. That's basically free power from an engineering perspective (not money related :biggrin:). If you gain 10% more displacement that means you should see about 10% more power at the same boost level, assuming the headflow isn't restrictive. That's easily 20-25hp at these power levels.

2) Cams - normally aspirated the stock cams make power peak around 6200-6300 rpm. That explains why we see a fairly marked rise in boost on supercharged setups over 6000rpm. What is happening is the engine VE is dropping rapidly at this point whereas the blower is happily keeping a pretty steady VE. The engine is becoming the bottleneck. Since the Coldside seems to be especially happy at high rpm and I agree that raising the redline is going to be where the power is at, rather than going all out boost. In other words, I think that even with stock cams and even the base 105mm pulley you would see more rwhp with the rev limit being raised up to say 7500 or even 8000rpm. Anyway, on top of that, imagine the further increase in power (and lowering of boost and heat at high rpm) with cams that make power peak, normally aspirated, at about say 7000rpm rather than 6200rpm? I think you would see a very healthy increase in top end power without sacrificing lowend since the blower beautifully fills in the low and midrange anyway. The key with the cams is not to go too far so that off boost driveability suffers.

3) Engine management. I won't say jump to standalone right away, but with a change in cams you will probably need a change in the tuning throughout the entire load and rpm on the engine. Additionally, I think an 8000rpm rev limit, or however high you can go with the forged rods/pistons/stronger valve springs/etc will be key. For this you may need a standalone. Especially, say, if the engine is built for 9000rpm. Hey, you said money is no object :devil2:

4) If an EM is used that can control the cam advance, the '01+ head may turn out to be beneficial for high rpm power. In other words, what used to be the enemy when it comes to boost, may be your friend. Can't say if I would recommend it as it would be a test, but it would be a thought. The thing to consider in all of this is that with the combination of a change in cams, pistons and possible cam advance/retard, avoiding piston to valve contact (and ensuring it through careful measurements during the build process) will become a factor. With a higher lift/duration cam grind and the ability to change the cam advance with the click of a mouse or button, avoiding this very unhealthy situation :) will become a design issue.

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yep, TBC coatings on the pistons would allow the chamber temperatures increas without melting the pistons. Like running 13:1 instead of 12:1 and making more power. I wonder if they make those for the Miata?

I think mixing with this blower and only 122 ci of throttled volume to mix it all in should not be a problem, but that's a "?". The guys at Robello would have the answer to that, I think.

Well, my first love and new stuff would be for the Miata but the S2K would be back on the burner again. The design is all done already. All we need is the casting and time/manpower to put it together and test it.


Sorry to follow up Bill's informative post with mine, but...

I am by absolutely NO means even remotely an expert in this field, but I thought I remembered from long long ago that you didn't want to polish an force inducted motor's head, something about mixing. Is this maybe all pre-fuel injectors thinking?

Re: ceramic coated pistons
I forget now where I saw these guys advertised (R&T, MT, SCCA rags, etc) but Swain seems to have a long history
http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10300
Sorry, but I don't have any experience with them

DO'OH!!! No good (CARB legal) boosting alternatives for the S2K is why I didn't go that route.

and lastly...
Hey BlownMX5, I didn't realize s/c was allowed in CSP (from your cardomain site) ;)

[99mx5]

Tom, This might interest you http://www.belfabracing.com/newsdesk_info.php?newsdesk_id=16

[FormerDatsun510Man]

By the numbers:

stock: 83mm bore x 85mm stroke = 1840cc
1mm overbore: 84mm bore x 85mm stroke = 1884cc
stroker crank: 83mm bore x 89mm stroke = 1926cc
stroker crank + 1mm overbore: 84mm bore x 89mm stroke = 1973cc

percent displacement increase over stock:
1mm overbore: 2.4%
stroker crank: 4.7%
1mm overbore + stroker crank: 7.2%

Actually, FM's stroker kit uses a 84.5mm bore so they arrive at 1996cc for a displacement gain over stock of 8.5%. Point here is, though expensive, the stroker crank will give you a lot more displacement increase over just boring out the cylinders. Granted, "a lot", is relative here :), but you said cost is no object :biggrin:.

Power estimate for your 220rwhp setup would be 239rwhp with the same boost (would still mean a larger pulley, which of course, I like the idea of). Add cams that are every so slightly more aggressive than stock to push the NA power peak to around 7000rpm and you would probably see easily over 250rwhp... and that's before raising the redline to 8000rpm which I think would net quite a bit more since even "stock" the Coldside doesn't appear to be near the power peak at 7000rpm. I'm really curious what will happen with another 1000rpm.

Regarding cams, maybe it would end up being easier to just have your own billets grounds to spec? This would entail first taking the stock cams and getting them measured and put into a computer program. There are a lot of dyno simulator software out there that I think would be reasonable, at a low cost, to figure out what cam grind you would need for a moderate step. For much larger steps I could see that this approach would be riskier, but to just say increase the lift around 10-15% and a corresponding adjustment to the duration (actually the opening and closing deg are the most important from what I saw in playing with Desktop Dyno software). My other suggestion would be to test the engine (once broken in) normally aspirated with the cam to ensure it is making more power and peaking at the right rpm range compared to stock. Then put the supercharger system onto it. Otherwise you might be chasing your tail. This would also ensure that it is running right for "normal" driving.

Regarding the ECU, I hear you on that :biggrin:. Just thought I would mention it. I'm sure there is a way this can be done elegantly with the PC Pro setup to raise the redline. Whereas there might be further gains with the VVT employed on the '01+, the KISS approach may be better. At least for round 1 in this :biggrin:.

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Tom, This might interest you http://www.belfabracing.com/newsdesk_info.php?newsdesk_id=16

That is a pretty great deal. Do you know much/anything about them?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I don't have a problem with stroking it, I just refuse to use Wiseco pistons.

You and I both know the PC-Pro can do the job with 4 additional injectors, we just have to massage the software. We figured that out once, I believe. ;) All it needs is time and effort.

I'll leave it up to the new engineer to figure out the cams. :)

By the numbers:

stock: 83mm bore x 85mm stroke = 1840cc
1mm overbore: 84mm bore x 85mm stroke = 1884cc
stroker crank: 83mm bore x 89mm stroke = 1926cc
stroker crank + 1mm overbore: 84mm bore x 89mm stroke = 1973cc

percent displacement increase over stock:
1mm overbore: 2.4%
stroker crank: 4.7%
1mm overbore + stroker crank: 7.2%

Actually, FM's stroker kit uses a 84.5mm bore so they arrive at 1996cc for a displacement gain over stock of 8.5%. Point here is, though expensive, the stroker crank will give you a lot more displacement increase over just boring out the cylinders. Granted, "a lot", is relative here :), but you said cost is no object :biggrin:.

Power estimate for your 220rwhp setup would be 239rwhp with the same boost (would still mean a larger pulley, which of course, I like the idea of). Add cams that are every so slightly more aggressive than stock to push the NA power peak to around 7000rpm and you would probably see easily over 250rwhp... and that's before raising the redline to 8000rpm which I think would net quite a bit more since even "stock" the Coldside doesn't appear to be near the power peak at 7000rpm. I'm really curious what will happen with another 1000rpm.

Regarding cams, maybe it would end up being easier to just have your own billets grounds to spec? This would entail first taking the stock cams and getting them measured and put into a computer program. There are a lot of dyno simulator software out there that I think would be reasonable, at a low cost, to figure out what cam grind you would need for a moderate step. For much larger steps I could see that this approach would be riskier, but to just say increase the lift around 10-15% and a corresponding adjustment to the duration (actually the opening and closing deg are the most important from what I saw in playing with Desktop Dyno software). My other suggestion would be to test the engine (once broken in) normally aspirated with the cam to ensure it is making more power and peaking at the right rpm range compared to stock. Then put the supercharger system onto it. Otherwise you might be chasing your tail. This would also ensure that it is running right for "normal" driving.

Regarding the ECU, I hear you on that :biggrin:. Just thought I would mention it. I'm sure there is a way this can be done elegantly with the PC Pro setup to raise the redline. Whereas there might be further gains with the VVT employed on the '01+, the KISS approach may be better. At least for round 1 in this :biggrin:.

Bill

[Mathrips]

There is some discussion about using the exhaust cam on the intake side for a bit more lift. It seems the mazdaspeed miata factory intake cam is almost identical to this and can also be used with a little less fuss as it does not require sawing off the end. Long thread on "exhintake" on mnet. Stroker kit seems so expensive for so little displacement. Headwork alone might get you farther than you imagined.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The Miata is a 'non-interferrence' engine. Any idea how far you can go with lift before you kiss that goodbye?

The stroker bothers me only because the piston choice is slim and the wrist pin is in the same place as one of the rings. It may be perfectly OK but it just LOOKS wrong.

[Steve in VC]

Tom,

What is the status of your new engine?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Nothing to report as I have been deep into the YoYo and sales of Coldsides has simply started to bloom. :-) Bill is here now and will take some of that load off and I am headed up to Washington state to visit Paul and might stop in Northern CA on the way back to discuss the engine.

[socal pat]

Hey Tom, did you get a WAG number from Robellos for the head work? Call me crazy, but since the car will be with Mike for a time I'm thinking of having them pull the head and giving it the business.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I haven't but that is why I would like to stop in Northern CA and visit. Time to start getting serious.

[pat conlon]

Hey Tom, you're on the road, have a safe trip.
FYI Bill Wilner sells a neat modified MBSP where he welds in a 5th support bracket for the center main bearing. Scroll down: http://miataroadster.com/bottomend.html
Something to consider...

You earlier posted that Mike doesn't like Bill's billet oil pump gears? This is the first time I've heard of anyone not thinking that this was a good idea, superior to the oem cast gears.
It's interesting to note that Bill will now only sell the assembled oil pump with the billet gears within. I can only guess that previously folks who installed the billet gears, improperly shimed them. (?)

<edit> Hmmm, I see that the billet oil pump gears are no longer listed on Bill's site....(?)

I do agree with you re: Forged pistons for street use. I have a line on 84mm hyperectic cast 9:1 pistons from Australia if you need it....

Congrats on your success, sorry about your motor, and....
Where the hell are Eaton's TVS R900's and R1050's? I'm gettin pissed. ;-) Pat

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

That MBSP looks really good. I wonder why Mazda didn't include the fifth main bearing?

If you took it that way, I wrote it wrong. Mike was simply saying that he didn't think you could beat the stock oil pump. Not that there was anything wrong with Bill's. Mike could be right? Mine went 154,000 miles and I guess I am not POSITIVE that it failed. Mike or somebody (who?) suggested that the pickup could have come loose and fell off. That would result in the same failure. I guess there are other reasons as well? All I can say for certainty is thet the oil pressure all of a sudden went to 0. I have the TDR real oil pressure mod on my car so I see the actual fluctuations.

Aren't 84mm hypereutectic the stock available 1mm over pistons from Mazda? The stock pistons in Miatas are hypereutectic.

I have asked about the TVS R900 a couple times. The answer is that Eaton has the world rights to all OEM applications and Magnuson has the world rights to all the aftermarket applications. Magnuson told me, last time I enquired about them, that Eaton waits until the new product is well out in the OEM market before they go to Magnuson. They also said that first would be the larger one for the big V8s. I would love to test one an would switch to the R900cc if it proved to be better. At first glance it does appear to be more efficient. I think the R1200cc would be overkill for a 1.8L. We are barely turning the MP62 (1000cc) on the base 200WHP kit at 11,300 RPM at redline and they will run 16,000 RPM all day.

Hey Tom, you're on the road, have a safe trip.
FYI Bill Wilner sells a neat modified MBSP where he welds in a 5th support bracket for the center main bearing. Scroll down: http://miataroadster.com/bottomend.html
Something to consider...

You earlier posted that Mike doesn't like Bill's billet oil pump gears? This is the first time I've heard of anyone not thinking that this was a good idea, superior to the oem cast gears.
It's interesting to note that Bill will now only sell the assembled oil pump with the billet gears within. I can only guess that previously folks who installed the billet gears, improperly shimed them. (?)

<edit> Hmmm, I see that the billet oil pump gears are no longer listed on Bill's site....(?)

I do agree with you re: Forged pistons for street use. I have a line on 84mm hyperectic cast 9:1 pistons from Australia if you need it....

Congrats on your success, sorry about your motor, and....
Where the hell are Eaton's TVS R900's and R1050's? I'm gettin pissed. ;-) Pat

[pat conlon]

Perhaps the crank/block flex is minimal in the center bearing area and greater on the outside edges?
Re: 84mm pistons, Ok good deal. I thought Mazda only offered their pistons in the standard overbore sizes of .010; .020 and.030 over, IIRC 83.5mm was the largest.
No argument from me on the quality of the Mazda pistons.

I'll bet a jelly donut with a high flowing Rebello head you could fully use the TVS R1050, I agree the 1.2 liter unit would be to large...

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I'll check but I thought they were available in .5mm (0.020") and 1mm (0.040") oversize.

I was also under the impression that some people worried about the 1mm over as "some" blocks were a bit porous and the water jacket was close to the bore and you could get some problems? However, I think I picked that up on mnet and sometimes people know not of what they speak on mnet.

[pat conlon]

However, I think I picked that up on mnet and sometimes people know not of what they speak on mnet.

Hard to believe.... ;-)

[Skullduggery]

I can't wait to hear the cost for the head work, it is how I plan to make more power...

Also interested in your findings on the Cam. It has been (for most of my life) a very good way to make power quickly.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, my old engine, transmission and Coldside are now nicely mounted in a BugEye Sprite with room to spare. Srictly for size and fit, of course. Two new engines, transmissions and Coldsides will go in the matched pair of BugEyes.

[99mx5]

Pics or ban! ;)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I haven't seen it yet. Hans was up there and he didn't take pictures and I gave him whatfor but it didn't help. :)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

This is still in the 'will it fit stage'. I was up there last week and Brandy was making the new front suspension. If it were my car, those fenders would be history. :) However, it does fit.

[MX-Drew]

Looks like it was made to go in there.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

They just had to cut a bit of the hump to allow for the transmission. Other than that, it fits. He has cut away the front cross member to make his own to fit the new suspension.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

This is what the finished product will look like. :-)

[99mx5]

It almost looks like Speed Racer's car ;)

[Gman7007]

You mean like this Miata? http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3090186

[JTod]

If you didn't start the engine project yet this could be a viable alternative:

http://www.miata.net/cgi-bin/isc/classifieds.cgi?action=detail&AdNumber=80662&CategoryID=&SubID=&Position=12&TotalCount=&Session=49cc0d4b4754a55a&FirstPage=&LastPage=&prevaction=today

Of course you would have to modify the CS to fit a 95 head but you should have the parts for that...

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I'm checking that one out. Thanks. That is basically what I would build. If nothing else, it would be a great engine for the BugEye.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Looks like I owe you one. Good chance that engine will be mine in a couple days if the numbers are good.

[JTod]

That's cool, hope it works out - seems like a good deal for a Robello worked engine.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

it is basically how I would have had it built.

[socal pat]

Man, what a deal!! Ready to just drop it in and strap on the SC. You couldn't touch that for double the price doing it yourself.

[gludlow]

Man, what a deal!! Ready to just drop it in and strap on the SC. You couldn't touch that for double the price doing it yourself.

Seriously! That's fantastic... I hope it all works out, tom. Although I am a bit disappointed you aren't getting a whole new car, I'd love to have bought your 99AE interior ;-)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Gram,

There's still hope. Maybe I'll turn this one into a track car and strip the interior?

[99mx5]

To do that you have to actually take it to the track. *hint* *hint* ;)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Actually, for that I need some time. As to that, I just need to finish the latest software revisions for the yoyo as it is getting real close to market. Engine and track take second place.

[Elphaba]

:confused: Whats the latest Tom?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, Nick sent me this message:

"Tom,
bad news:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y230/thesnowboarder/IMG_0288-1.jpg

So i wont be selling a blown motor.
Nick"

That was followed by:

"I'm glad it happened to me rather than you right after I sold it. I
would have felt horrible.
Nick"


So I guess it is back to the drawing board. :(

[tann3r]

here is one for sale near me.

http://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t34267/

Not sure how much I trust the guy as he is out on bail for a local murder. That aside, it looks like a decent deal.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I am banned from buying stuff on mtnet (pronounced "empty net"). :) I am not even allowed to read the ads. Just as well, you just can't always trust people with turbos especially when they are out on bail for murder. Actually, I didn't know there was bail for murder. ;)

[tann3r]

ya, the empty net (hehe) have a tough crowd, and they sure are hard headed. I am thinking about pick up that motor when i get back in town, but i'm not sure what i need 2 built motors for. here are the specs if anyone else is interested.

$2000.00 Firm. Fully built engine. 95 block, 99 head, adj cam gear, full Belfab kit, 1mm oversize valves, professional machine work done by Westside Performance, arp head studs, arp main studs, 5-valve job, balanced, block decked and head milled, 9.0 cr ratio, and oil crank scrapper. Stock intake manifold, no exhaust manifold. I paid $2200 for parts not including block and $900 for machine work. Total invested $3100.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Be careful of motors that have been turbo'd. They have typically been abused.

If the block and head have been decked and milled, wouldn't the CR be higher than 9:1? Was this a boosted engine or simply a high HP NA engine?

[tann3r]

From what i gathered, though not yet confirmed, was the motor has not been run. Apparently his father is taking care of the sale of his parts and does not know any specifics.

Milling the block and head will change the CR, but usually not a significant amount.

Initially this motor was going to be turboed, but he never got around to ordering the kit before he started selling off stuff. But i am waiting to hear back wether or not the motor has been started.

[gludlow]

Aw, too bad about that engine Tom! I found you a replacement car in the meantime so you won't be Miata-less:

1999 10th Anniversary Edition Miata, 6k miles, HT, $14,500 Buy it Now! (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D2&item=170324186339&category=6324&viewitem=) :drool5:

Of course, with the nice, shiny new car to put a giant SC on, you'd probably want to throw away the interior of your other 10AE and make it a track car...:biggrin:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Nice car. They really think highly of it. Mine had 8000 miles on it when I bought it in Sept 2002 and that is about what I paid for it then.

[gludlow]

Nice car. They really think highly of it. Mine had 8000 miles on it when I bought it in Sept 2002 and that is about what I paid for it then.

Yup. This is a relist; last time around, bidding went to just over $11,000 which sounds right to me. The seller obviously didn't think so.

Sad thing is, it's just going to depreciate in value if they wait; $11k might be the most they can get for it, at least for a decade or more ;). But some people just can't learn to cut their losses...

'course, all bets are off if just one person out there absolutely MUST have one.

On the other hand, they could buy this one with under 2k miles with a Buy it Now! of $20,000 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mazda-MX-5-Miata-10th-Anniversary-Limited-Edition-1999-Mazda-Miata_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q3 a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c293 Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZit em360148746996QQitemZ360148746996QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5f Trucks)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I guess my opinion is that with normal miles, it would be worth ~$9K. With that low mileage, I could add $2K. I agree that $11K would be my idea of a fair price as well. You may still have a shot at my worn out interior :) as we have decided to buy a 2008 to test/CARB the new NC Coldside on and probably turn the 99 into a street/track car but no more cross country trips in it.

[oldtimer02]

Moss sent me a new catalog, it says the new NC coldside dynos at 186 WHP.
What's up with that? I figured "no substitute for cubic inches" + coldside would be around the 246WHP Brian Goodwin got with the Cosworth!
How about E-cool to inter cool?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It has ECool. They are typical Moss and VERY conservative in tuning. When Bill gets his hands on that kit here, we are shooting for 240-250.

[gludlow]

I guess my opinion is that with normal miles, it would be worth ~$9K. With that low mileage, I could add $2K. I agree that $11K would be my idea of a fair price as well. You may still have a shot at my worn out interior :) as we have decided to buy a 2008 to test/CARB the new NC Coldside on and probably turn the 99 into a street/track car but no more cross country trips in it.

Pics! Pics! Did you go PRHT? :party: Bought it yet, or still shopping?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

My goal for that stuff is after we get into the new brick/mortar building. Hopefully August.

We will have to wait until Moss oficially releases the digital pictures before I can post them. I have not seen the latest catalog but I don't believe they are actually on the shelves yet. Trust me, I am sure I will be one of the first to know. Guess what they use for cooling. Oh wait. No, not for cooling, just for added fuel as we all know it doesn't really cool the air, right? ;)

[Elphaba]

:toetap05: So... Ummm. Whats going on with your motor Tom?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I have until August 1 to get that other project ready for the toy shelves. All spare time, effort and $$ go there.

[Steve in VC]

Can't miss Christmas, and back to school.

If Tom is this busy, now that he is retired, I wonder if he slept when he was working full time.....

I will be interested to see what he comes up with when he dedicates this level of effort to an engine optimized for coldside.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I have worked 24/7/365 most of my life. When we sold the yoyo company to Duncan in 2001 I tried to retire. Then we got rid of the house and put the 'stuff' in storage, traded the Harley for a Gold Wing, bought a trailer to hold our clothes and hit the road to tour the US of A for a year. 3 months, 19,000 miles and 29 states later, a guy in Boston decided stop signs weren't for him and ended our ride.

We replaced the bike with the 10AE and the rest, as they say, is history.

Bill will probably be mad at me for letting the cat out of the bag BUT, we are in the design stage for a 250 WHP version and a 300 WHP version. Current kits will be upgradable. Both will be non-intercooled. Shh! Don't let Bill know I spilled the beans.

[gludlow]

Bill will probably be mad at me for letting the cat out of the bag BUT, we are in the design stage for a 250 WHP version and a 300 WHP version. Current kits will be upgradable. Both will be non-intercooled. Shh! Don't let Bill know I spilled the beans.

But... but... only a turbo kit can get 300RWHP! The guys on turbomiata.net told me so :stupid:

Sweeeeeeeeeet! I promise I won't tell a soul.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Well, since the cat's out of the bag...

- The reason for the 4 EGT setup is so that we can verify that the current manifold design is flowing equally in all four cylinders at 300rwhp, along with checking E-Cools fuel distribution. Initial checks on my car on the dyno showed the temperature of the 4 runners scanned with an infrared temp scanner to be essentially equal (all showed 550 deg F on the outside as I ran it on the dyno to 7000rpm with E-Cool turned way up)

- I have now seen that E-Cool really does cool the air charge down like Tom indicated in that video a ways back. I am still waiting to put an air intake thermocouple in my car to check this out at bigger pulley levels. Initially, I have gone the route of turning the E-Cool up even further and the main injectors down. This has allowed me to run the 130mm pulley with no timing retard and no ping. I have a wideband in my car and I am seeing the same 11.5-12:1 a/f ratio as before when it would ping with the 130mm pulley with anything less than about 3 deg of timing retard on 93 octane.

- Since E-Cool is bringing the temperature down sufficiently to run very high boost and flow rates (well above traditional "non-intercooled") I theorize that the reason that the current Coldside design seems to plateau at about 210-220rwhp is a flow limitation, not a temperature related one (like I used to think before working at FFS).

- I have a number of ideas related to both the manifold, intake setup and fueling that I believe will allow us to reach at least 250rwhp and quite possibly 300rwhp on the race setup

- Once we figure out how to get the Coldside capable of flowing 300rwhp worth of air and doing it efficiently (equal air flow and equal fuel flow to all four cylinders), I think we will ultimately make the best power with an engine that revs and has great cylinder headflow. Another words, the MP62 is limited to a safety limit of about 16000rpm. We could run 16000rpm with a stock engine revving at 7000rpm or we could say run 16000rpm with an engine with a reworked head and perhaps higher duration cams at 8000 or 9000rpm. I think the later method would make more power and be more likely to hit 300rwhp or better. I particularly think that higher duration cams have potential with the Coldside because if you look at the current dyno charts, power is building with no sign of drop off right to 7000rpm. The stock cams naturally aspirated peak at about 6200rpm, thus if we could have a set of cams that naturally peaked at least at 7000rpm, I think even the standard Coldside kit would make more power. Especially with the rev limiter raised. Now, just imagine the possbilities with a built engine and a flowed head and revving that puppy to 9000rpm?

- I intend to look into a header that can flow for this application. I think it will be a 4-1 design with generously sized primaries and at least a 2.5" collector.

- I'm sure we will catch a lot of flak from the "experts" on the other forums for using a 5th injector and no intercooler. It can't work can it? :)

- All of these things will be done in such a way that the current Coldside kit can easily be upgraded. I don't foresee these changes being necessary on our standard kit which can already hit about the safe upper rwhp limit on a stock Miata engine. The only thing I am thinking about potentially with the current kit is related to tuning. As you guys may have seen, I did a revision recently to the PC Pro to make the Coldside run even better. I intend to delve into this a little deeper as time permits.

So, that is a glimpse into what is in store coming from FFS. In addition to getting the NC kit making bigger rwhp.

After that, maybe we can get a Porsche in the shop? Or how about a MP62 powered L18 in a Datsun 510? I'm even willing to stoop to a more backyardish welded manifold like one of our competitors uses on their Coldside for a one off like that :biggrin:

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

OK, who told Bill? He is really long winded, isn't he? :-)

[99mx5]

A few things I did to make more power for a given boost level is to gasket match the IM. The IM casting does have smaller ports than the head where they meet. The TBA also does not match the blower inlet. The opening of the TBA typically is a bit larger than the blower where they are mounted together. This causes a lip at the entrance of the blower that can inhibit some of the airflow into the blower. These mods allowed me to obtain 188WHP on the dyno with a 65mm/100mm pully combination without ecool. This was before ecool was used. Of course, modding the blower will void warranty.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

I intend to delve into those areas a little more myself. I think it may be a YMMV, because in my case I didn't gain anything and actually may have lost a little. I did a baseline run without doing anything to the kit and just bolting everything on. Then I went back and took the sharp edge off the ports in the intake manifold along with enlarging the blower inlet very slightly so as to match with the TB adapter. All that work and when I put it back on the dyno the power was down about 5rwhp. I ended up adding a little fuel back and brought it back up with E-Cool juggling to about the same power level before I touched it. I don't have an answer as to why it didn't help because it would seem taking off the sharp edges and matching the blower inlet to the TB adapter would be a good thing. As a result of this, I am a bit more cautious, and actually for our big power kit I am thinking of keeping it in untouched form to start with at least.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It just so happens I have a duplicate of Ari's original ported blower. It is waiting for you to test. It was donated by John Wing. For some reason he didn't want it any more? ;)

[Satisaii]

It has not ended up in the trash yet?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, it donated the bypass shaft to James Low just two weeks ago, It now has a shortage of parts but could be revived if you want to run it again? :)

It is beautifully ported. It was a thing of beauty on Ari's car. I think the porting only cost him about 15WHP.

[Elphaba]

:biggrin: OOH ! OOH ! How bout a 300 HP Austin Healey Bug-eyed Sprite ?:svengo:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Somehow, I think a 1400-1500 pound Bugeye with 200WHP, is enough. :)

[Steve in VC]

I am eager to see what Bill comes up with.

Cooling the air increases density, so you should be able to flow more through the existing ports. Have you tried different ratio's of main / E-cool with the same A/F ratio to see if you get more power with more E-Cool?

Also, the cooler air gives you lower boost for the same number of oxygen molecules, less energy driving the supercharger - more to the wheels.

Are you looking at any of the airflow dynamics programs? Engine Analyzer Pro (~$500) has a 10 day free trial to see if it will give you any insights.

http://performancetrends.com/download.htm#eapro

What do the turbo guys do to get 300WHP? The exhaust is more restricted, do they work the head? Use the stock intake manifold?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I opened this can of worms so I guess it is my responsibility to put it to bed. :)

Bill and I won't be talking about the methods/direction we intend to take to get there. We don't want to give away the ideas until we have tested them. no need to help the competition. However, we have had enough late night discussions on the subject that we are 99% sure about 250WHP and probably 90% sure about 300 WHP.

Don't let that stop you guys from throwing out and discussing ideas.

[Elphaba]

:1eye: "Don't let that stop you guys from throwing out and discussing ideas" Err... 1.6 ?

[Satisaii]

S2000, but it may be too late with too little market.

[lowboy72]

Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, it donated the bypass shaft to James Low just two weeks ago, It now has a shortage of parts but could be revived if you want to run it again? :)

It is beautifully ported. It was a thing of beauty on Ari's car. I think the porting only cost him about 15WHP.

My car appreciates the donation!

[FormerDatsun510Man]

S2000, but it may be too late with too little market.

I don't think it is too late, in fact, I think it is prime time for the S2000. I think a majority of people out their feel more comfortable modifying a car that has been on the road at least a year or two rather than brand new off the showroom floor. In this light, I think this makes ALL of the S2000s out there candidates for boost. Granted, the numbers won't increase but I think it will take a long, long time for the supply to run out to the point that the demand for FI kits would start going down. In fact, say in another 10 years, the S2000 will be old enough to be a real bargain for the grassroots racing crowd. You might see another surge in FI kits for them at this time.

For comparison, just look at the Miata market. NA and NB Miata supercharger sales are going strong and they have been out of production for years :).

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The S2000 is on the list as we already have the manifold casting designed.

[Satisaii]

I offered my car, and I offered to help. I offered to help finance, but the economic problems are killing my cash reserves. A 50% pay cut did not help, either.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, if I spend less time at the doctors and more time on SolidWorks, I can get this #$%^& yoyo finished and off to market and funding will no longer be an issue. :)

[oldtimer02]

Well, if I spend less time at the doctors and more time on SolidWorks, I can get this #$%^& yoyo finished and off to market and funding will no longer be an issue. :)
The latest PC PRO update is great! smooths things out a lot. Still tuning with the wide band, on the new 115 pully. Then to the Dyno. so far the o2 is smoothed out and consistant 11 to 12.6 so far. I am shooting for 11.5 - 12.5.
running -1.5 timing card 5-7K, but I may not need that when I am done tuning. 93 octane here in Fl.
It will be interesting to see what Tom & Bill are planning for the existing kit upgrades!
My main problem now is traction! Wide wheels & sticky tires are my next buy!!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, at least the Bugeye is getting attention. As it is typically carbureted, they decided to go with pre-blower carburetors.

[Elphaba]

:rofl: Thats gonna be one trick custom intake mani :rofl:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

As long as there is nothing new on my engine, I figured I would give an update to the Bugeye. Ah yes, I forgot, it will be right hand drive.

[oldtimer02]

It looks like the Miata engine is a good fit in the bugeye chassis! I really like the body style from the back

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

In case you can't tell, Hans grew up with "Speed Racer" and that is where this is headed, kind of.

I'm just curious what 1300-2400 pounds will be like with 200+ WHP? :) I'm sure that 8" Ford diff will take it. I think the suspension is possibly too stiff. Guess we will find out.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, finally I got a new engine, see pictures attached.

[Dr Evol]

Looks like a car to me....where is the engine? :confused:


Thanks for the throttle bracket Tom!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It's under the hood. :) A little 1.6L 1990. Guess why? ;)

[Satisaii]

Which one was this one?

Congrats on the new ride.

[Gman7007]

Hmmmm....perhaps the new subject on the forum gives us another hint.

1.6L Coldside coming to a FFS dealer soon!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The RED one!!! :)


Which one was this one?

Congrats on the new ride.

[gludlow]

Um, tom, someone forgot to remove the car from around that engine... :stuart:

Nice looking 90! Sounds like you're going to have some fun with it. Any plans for the 10AE?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I have two plans for the 10AE.

1) Sell it sans engine/trans. $2500?

2) keep it. Finish the 1990. Sell the 1990 to Bill (he has already damaged the paint with drool). Move on to the NC Coldside.

If you're thinking I should part it out, my HOA would kill me. They are already not happy with me as I am a rabble-rouser. It has JIC 12/10, Koyo 55, Kosei 15-7 rims, etc.

[gludlow]

You'd have better luck selling it whole than parting it out. Could make a grat autoX car; just install a 5sp + engine and it's ready to roll :-)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I was just making an offer if anybody wanted it. We have a plan and keep it or sell it doesn't matter. It has 3.6 LSD and lots of other stuff as noted above. As you said, new engine/trans and it would be a great track car.

We are building a Robello engine as we speak and it will have a Coldside but it is going in a different chassis being prepped for track only use. I just don't need this one any more. :)

After the 1990, we will get an NC and see what we can do with it. Bill has the 2000 so that is also covered for test.

If nobody wants the 10AE, I will probably take it to Mike and let him part it out. Jim Simpson hood mike look good on Bills? ;)

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Well... the nice thing with the red back in '90 is it sure shines up beautifully! The bumpers are now shinier than the rest of the car in my remove all signs of fading experiment. I guess I now need to polish the rest of the paint to match :biggrin:

I have to say that I definitely like the '90 a lot better than the '00. Better build quality, better looking, better color. Actually I was surprised how peppy it was... but we are going to make it a lot more than a little "peppy" soon :).

We got a lucky find.... it is like a time warp back to 1990... Never thought I would be saying time warp and 1990 in the same sentence. Time warp and woodstock would seem more appropriate.

[Mark]

It would just about qualify for "Antique" plates here in Illinois!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Here it qualifies for $25/year plates. Takes 25 years for 'antique'.

[Elphaba]

It's under the hood. :) A little 1.6L 1990. Guess why? ;)
:no: OH NO ! Here we go again. :svengo:

[Elphaba]

I have two plans for the 10AE.

1) Sell it sans engine/trans. $2500?

2) keep it. Finish the 1990. Sell the 1990 to Bill (he has already damaged the paint with drool). Move on to the NC Coldside.

If you're thinking I should part it out, my HOA would kill me. They are already not happy with me as I am a rabble-rouser. It has JIC 12/10, Koyo 55, Kosei 15-7 rims, etc.
3) Stick an LS7 V8 in it...:hammer:

[beatle]

Now you just need a 96-97 to complete the collection! :)