What did I do to my engine?!?!?!?!

[Digitac]

So after trying everything to get the NOx emissions down to pass smog, I decided to try decarbonizing the pistons using the water method mentioned here.
I used the extra length of boost gauge hose I had laying around and a 10 ounce bottle of water. I fed it in very slowly, just letting it slurp water off the top with a bunch of air stopping every ounce or two for 30 seconds to a couple of minutes. Spent about 20 minutes total feeding that 10 ounces in.
After the bottle is empty I let it idle for a while, reconnect the hose and blip the throttle just slightly a couple of times (to around 1500 rpm). It seemed fine so after a few minutes of idling I slowly backed it out the driveway. As soon as it hit the street, without even giving it any gas I hear a clunk, followed by a terrible bearing-in-can rattle. I point it at the curb (it's barely even rolling forward) and shut down the engine. Now the engine won't even crank.
The only thing I can think is that the water wasn't atomizing going in and pooled up in the intake manifold. As soon as I sloshed it around it hydro locked a piston. It's too dark to remove the sparkplugs at the moment, so that will have to wait until tomorrow.
PLEASE tell me it's something else! PLEASE!!! I want to buy a house, not an engine!

[bogey]

That does not sound good. It sounds like your assessment may be right.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

If you did it with water and a shot glass, I don't think you could hydrolock the engine. That's why the shotglass. I think something else.

[MX-Drew]

Erm I would say good bye to the engine, they are not designed to take 10 ounces of water in the cylinders. :angelsad2:

Are houses that cheap it is a choice between a house or an engine?

[Digitac]

Well, not having a shot glass handy, I simulated one by only sucking a little bit out of the bottle, but what got me in trouble was the "repeat" phase. Maybe I should've let it idle longer or even drive it between "shot glasses"?
Well the damage is done, and part of the down payment for a house will go to the engine (wish the entire house was as cheap as an engine Drew, still looking at $400k here).
Hey Tom, hurry up and decide what you're putting in your engine so I can do the same! ;) I knew the engine would come to this some day (between the way I drive and the pinging it had early on) but I hadn't planned on being the cause of the demise. :nopity:

[pumpkin]

I fed it in very slowly, just letting it slurp water off the top with a bunch of air stopping every ounce or two for 30 seconds to a couple of minutes.

I think here's where you went wrong, you nearly drowned it. Sorry.

JD

[MX-Drew]

Just a thought, is it possible the water has caused a plug (or two) to break, thermal shock. When you plug the plugs you should know.

Also I was going to add at least you can build an engine just as you want it.

I thought houses seemed cheap there (or engines expensive!)

[Steve in VC]

Digitac,

Have you had a chance to pull the plugs to see if it will blow water and turn over?

If you didn't have the ball bearing in can noise, I may guess a piston tried to compress water, and stopped. That would explain why it won't turn over.

[Gord96BRG]

It is also possible that the water did the de-carbonizing too well... your description of the "clunk-rattle-rattle" before you shut down doesn't sound like hydrolocking (which stops the engine instantly, no "rattle-rattle"). It sounds more like a chunk of carbon broke free from your head or piston top, rattled around while the engine was running, and is now jammed on top of a piston or in an open valve, preventing the engine from turning.

A borescope would possibly confirm if this was the case, but you may just have to pull the head to find out what really happened.

[socal pat]

It is also possible that the water did the de-carbonizing too well... your description of the "clunk-rattle-rattle" before you shut down doesn't sound like hydrolocking (which stops the engine instantly, no "rattle-rattle"). It sounds more like a chunk of carbon broke free from your head or piston top, rattled around while the engine was running, and is now jammed on top of a piston or in an open valve, preventing the engine from turning.

A borescope would possibly confirm if this was the case, but you may just have to pull the head to find out what really happened.

I'd be really surprised to see a chunk of carbon that size in there. After over 100k miles when I took my motor apart the piston tops were surprisingly carbon free. Yah, there was some discoloration, but no caked on buildup. My rattle came from a portion of a piston top trying to escape back to the intake manifold (which it did) ;)

[Digitac]

Well, the weather let up long enough to let me pull the plugs today. 1 through 3 look ok, but #4 (rear most) came out with a strange grit on the threads. It looks all the world like copper colored dirt. It's non-ferris (didn't stick to the magnet I had handy).
The tops of the pistons were a mostly rust color with black spots. No standing water in any of the pistons, no obvious damage. I couldn't turn the engine by and, with a wrench or even with the starter with the plugs out. Under the car there looked to be a puddle of rain water with oil in it, but the oil may have been there already. I've moved the car to see if any new oil appears.
A shop in Santa Monica gave me a rough estimate of $2800 for a rebuild, of course that was with out 9:1 pistons or stronger rods. I guess i have some research to do.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

If the head is still good, go find a good used 94-97 block (9:1 pistons) and bolt it back together. $600 at most.

[Digitac]

Hey everyone, thought I might just update you with the current status of my car. I took it into Greg at Millenium Motorsports and when he pulled it apart, he sent me a very nice picture of the #4 piston and a very bent rod. He also found some water in cylinder so we know what happened... :frown:
So I had him rebuild it with forged pistons, rods, a new clutch, 1mm oversized valves, etc etc etc. I was getting all excited because the engine was supposed to go back in today and I'd get it back either today or tomorrow. Supposed to.... well... he was doing a final check of the engine and spun the supercharger pulley and heard something. Upon closer inspection he found that the hard protective coating on the rotors was coming off in large chunks. If one had gone through my new engine... ugh. So Monday I've got to call Magnuson and send it in again (it went in last July cause the nose bearings went out). So I guess I'll be without it for yet another week or two.

[socal pat]

Yah, Greg did my motor and he is a pretty thorough guy. Did he sell you the JE pistons? My motor is running great after more than a year.

[bogey]

So the moral of the story is...

Decarbonizing via water intake is a dangerous process. I suppose one could really damage an engine with a seafoam treatment, or any kind of liquid intake.

I imagine the excess liquid pooled in the intake and flooded the #4 when the car was moved. It would be better if an atomizer could be used to inject the fluid instead of dribbling it in. When I have performed it, I used a clear hose and skimmed bubble from the surface of the can of seafoam. I think if one dips too deep in the liquid, then you risk pooling.

I think this process has been recommended far too often in the past without proper warning as to the dangers of doing it wrong. I will certainly think twice before recommending it or performing it on an engine.

[Digitac]

Indeed, decarbonizing this way can be a very expensive proposition.

The car is safely back home now, with about 200 miles on the rebuilt engine. I'm trying to take care in breaking it in properly, so it will be a little while before it gets on the dyno. It definitely has a deeper exhaust note now, possibly due to the 1mm oversize valves, it sounds nice and drives great.

Magnuson again demonstrated the competency of their service department when they called and said my throttle body had been damaged in shipment and sent me pictures of a supercharger that was most definitely not mine. It took them all day to figure out what happened and find mine, so they had it in the shop for well over a week before they even looked at it.

To sum up:
Problems with parts from Tom: 0, zip, nada
Problems with Magnuson: 5
1: Nose bearings seized last summer under normal driving conditions
2: Supercharger shipped back to wrong address
3: Anti-friction coating coming off rotors in large, dangerous pieces
4: Mixed up my supercharger with another customer's
5: Again shipped to the wrong address (mine instead of the shop's)

I haven't swapped in the 115mm pulley yet (I'll do that when it gets on the dyno), but does anyone know what size belt that requires?

[99mx5]

Im sorry to hear about your experience with Magnuson service dept. I must say I have had nothing but excellent service from them. In all the cases where I had to deal with them they were always willing to go the extra mile. The only error that occurred was when they sent a nose for a MP90 for my MP62 and then they overnighted the correct part.

[socal pat]

Cool beans Jonathan! My Millenium Motorsports motor has about 5k on it now and runs sweet. I'd run out to the garage and get the number off my 115 belt, but it's at Mike's place getting a massage and a facial. I hear you ran into Jeff (Turns 101) at the shop. I've ridden in his 300hp car....... insane!! He thinks mine is "entertaining". :)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It all depends on the spacer between the blower and the intake manifold top plate. If it is a 94-97, the spacer has always been a 1/2" spacer (Zig Zag being the one exception as he got the first 94-97 kit :)) and the 105mm belt would be the 25-060435 and the 110 and 115 belt would be the 25-060441. If it is a 99-05, the early kits had the 1" spacer and had a 25-060441 belt for the 105mm and a 25-060445 belt for the 110 and 115 pulleys. If it is a 99-05 and has the 1/2" spacer, it is the same as the 94-97.