Installing a hotside MP62 on a '99

[Godless Commie]

Hi there,
Now that I have gathered almost everything I need for my MP62 hotside setup, I wanted to take care of a couple things before I started the installation.

Well, I still need a few trivial parts and bits, such as an auxillary radiator fan (I do not have A/C), Clutch slave cylinder (Just want to play it safe with thr new heavier clutch) and a hood lift kit (on the way), but everything else is ready to be installed.

The two things I needed to do were, the clutch installation and getting the car on a dyno to get a base reading before I did anything to the engine.

So, I went ahead and dynoed it today. Everything is bone stock under the hood. The plugs are about a year old, plug wires are as old as the car is, the air filter was replaced two oil changes ago, and the oil needs to be changed.

Here are the results, in short order:
(Sorry, I caanot post the actual sheet till my friend emails me the pdf files)

Max hp: 121.8 (BHP) @ 6500 rpm
Max torque: 142.5 Nm (105.102 LBs) @ 5000 rpm

What do you guys think?

The car has ~147.000 Km (~91.000 miles) on it.

The next step is replacing the clutch - will be taken care of within the week..

[socal pat]

Is this in the states? Dynojet or Mustang dyno? Those numbers are particularly strong for a '99 closing in on 100k miles. Hoook it up and rip on it!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Once again, I agree with Pat. 121 is a real good number. The 99 is typically ~105-110 and 115 for the exceptionally good one.

[jwalton]

Wow, those are strong numbers for a stock engine. In reality, it really doesn't matter what the specific numbers are as there are a stupid number of factors that can affect the hp readings of a dyno session. Treat the numbers as ballpark figures and go back to the same place for future comparison runs, ensuring that they use the same setups/settings.

It looks at first glance though that everything seems to be in great shape. Assuming the compression numbers look good as well, you should be good to go. Go get 'em!!!

[Gman7007]

The wife's 10AE with 35K miles baselined at:

SAE corrected 111 wHP and 105 wTQ

and that was in 4th gear (5th gear is 1:1).

Is your max "uncorrected"?

[Godless Commie]

About the clutch...

I (ahem) chose to be a cheapskate and went - on a moment's notice - with a lesser known clutch brand..

It's an ultradrift stage II racing clutch, rated at:
Horsepower: 290 hp
Torque Capacity: 265 ft/lbs

any ideas?

[Godless Commie]

The measurement was made in Istanbul, Turkey where I live, at a speed shop owned by a friend of mine.

He happens to be a Unichip distributor, so he has a Dastek dyno as specified and required by Dastek.
It is a loaded dyno, and he went through all the calibration steps prior to the runs.
Measurements were made in 4th gear.

I was surprised to see 121.8 myself, though I have to admit I was expecting higher numbers than the 105 to 110 figures I am used to seeing on the internet.

I say this because this is my second '99. The first one, the silver '99 I owned in the states, would not be able to keep up with this one. I mean, this one, in its current trim, absolutely bone stock, does have certain performance advantage issues that I had just chalked up to the "European Spec" thing.
It does not have the cast iron exhaust manifold and the cat, for starters. It came with the '10 style tubular headers (and a single 02). And while I could barely get my first '99 up to 120 mph, this one pulls strong till about 130 or so..

Even the service manager at Mazda (in Istanbul) was amazed at the car's performance when he took it out for a test drive.

So, I could just be lucky: It may be an exceptionally well broken in engine (I am the second owner), The "European spec" advantage theory may be for real, or the dyno may be waaaay out of adjustment. (this last bit is highly unlikely for the reasons I explained above, actually.)

My friend also told me there would be no correction factors to be applied to the posted numbers. (The place is at seal level, with ~ 50F ambient temps. I am currently using 97 octane - roughly 91-92 in US spec gas in prepatation for the s/c install)

And, the most important thing is, I will be using the same dyno during all phases of the tuning and final testing of the s/c and the PcPro system once all the hardware is installed, so I will be able to see how and where the performance increases are in the power output.

BTW, my friend, the owner of the speed shop insists that I use Motul 300V 15W50 synthetic oil from now on. Any experience with that oil?

Thank you for all the responses and feedback..

[Godless Commie]

Wow, it's been a while...

Work has been nothing short of overwhelming lately. 16 hour workdays have become the norm these days.

Grocery shopping has been an online activity, and I have noticed we have been buying mostly sandwich "fixins". Quick way to eat, with little mess.
Saves time, wastes life.

Anyway.. I had a chance to get the clutch replaced today as the preliminary step to the supercharger installation. Installed a new master and slave cylinder set just for good measure - the slave was about to go, turns out.
Rear main seal was also replaced.
Did an oil change (used the really expensive Motul 300V 15W50), as well as replacing the tranny oil (again, with Motul synthetic 75/90)
Had some rattling issues taken care of by spot welding all the exhaust shields in place while the car was taken apart, too.

Oh, I also installed the gas filled hood struts to make room for the intercooler piping..

Yep, all ready for the big install job.

I'll hopefully start on wednesday.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The old saying I remember that fits here is "Patience is a virtue, possess it if you can". Those who have taken their time installing my Coldside kits typically have the best success. I'm sure your hotside will be similar.

[Godless Commie]

Thank you, Tom.
I waited this long. No need to rush it now and - potentially - ruin things.

[Godless Commie]

DONE..

It took three days, just as planned, plus an extra day for an "unforeseeable" wiring problem.
It was an adventure and a half, literally..

Details, specific problem solutions and pictures to follow soon.

Oh, yes. It flies. And how :)

Ps# Jim, thanks a lot.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Hakan,

I can't apologize enough for that harness. Once in a long while I screw one up but yours took the prize.

[Godless Commie]

Like I said, Tom.. We're all human.

At least I was able to pinpoint and solve the problem. On a brighter note, I ended up with a three foot long harness!

I need to study and memorize how to read and adjust the cards before I get the car on the dyno.

I am pretty sure I am the only guy in all of Turkey who owns a PcPro setup. I would not expect anyone to be familiar with them here.

Once again, Tom, all is well.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Nonetheless, a high flow fuel rail will be on it's way to Finland on Monday for your troubles. I am glad that no harm was done. Amazing that I could have EVERY wire in the wrong place and not hurt the three cards or ECU.

[Godless Commie]

Nonetheless, a high flow fuel rail will be on it's way to Finland on Monday for your troubles. I am glad that no harm was done. Amazing that I could have EVERY wire in the wrong place and not hurt the three cards or ECU.

Wait!!
I don't live in Finland, Tom.. :no:

It's Istanbul, Turkey..

[Godless Commie]

And that's very kind of you, thank you. :blush5:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I have to stop using my PDA for posting. Well, in any case, this is easier to fix than the harness. What are your thoughts on moving to Finland?


Wait!!
I don't live in Finland, Tom.. :no:

It's Istanbul, Turkey..

[Godless Commie]

Bit cold over there..
Plus, I did live in Alaska for 20 years.. That should be enough.

You should move to, or at least visit this neck o'the woods, Tom.
Beautiful over here. Like a cross between SF and Vancouver, BC.

(and gas is almost 7 bucks a gallon! deal of a lifetime!! - used to be $11/gal)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Actually, I did visit Istanbul and loved every minute. I stayed at the hotel that was once a Sultan's Palace. Awesome. Toured the undergroundwater system that even a lot of residents never see. Boated up the Bosphorus (spelling?) to the Black Sea. Generally had a great time and look forward to returning.

[Godless Commie]

That's right.. I do remember you telling me about your trip on the phone. Please let me know if you decide to repeat that trip.
There's a spare bedroom, and a supercharged Miata in the driveway. You'll feel right at home.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Time for me to take another world tour. :) I have kits now in a lot of countries.

[Godless Commie]

Tom, about the fuel rail....

I do have a single O2, and the fuel system is not the returnless type. I have a feed line and a return line, if that helps..
(kind of like looking a gift horse in the mouth,and I feel bad about posting this, but while I would love to accept your gracious gift, I just wanted to make sure it would be the correct one for my engine.)
Oh, and the customs thing.. $80 maximum for the declared value.

Thanks again..:redface:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

You have the FPR mounted on the fuel rail, correct. No problem. It is a 99-05 head, correct?

[Godless Commie]

Well, it is an NB.. Production date is '98, though. I am quite certain it is a 99-05 head. It has the VICS system, afterall. What else can I look for to identify the head?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

That is enough. I know which one to send and the adaptor for the FPR.

[Godless Commie]

Thank you Tom..

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I'll send along all new rubber for the injectors too. Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

[jwalton]

Glad to read that you got it installed and up and running. Hopefully the instructions I provided were good enough. Take it easy until you get it on that dyno... I'll warn you though, it's gonna be real hard!!!

[Godless Commie]

Thank you, Jim..

I know I had promised to post pictures as well as details about the install.

Thing is, I came down with a major case of the worst flu one can imagine, and have been bed bound since my last post.
I haven't even had a chance to set the idle and adjust the TPS yet.

I'll post all that once I get a bit better..

Jim, would it be possible for you to pm me your phone#?

[Godless Commie]

Well I guess I should post some pictures, too..

Before and after pictures

("during" pics are to follow)

[Godless Commie]

Removed all that was necessary, cut away the bolt boss on the header to make room for the bracket.

[Godless Commie]

Finished installing the brackets, installed a second low profile fan on the radiator for good measure (built a separate circuit with a relay triggered by the main fan) and mounted the 110 mm crank pulley.
Hi tech "no mar" floral pattern fender cover courtesy of my wife, btw.

[Godless Commie]

Then the belt went on.
Next, radiator brackets were replaced to accomodate the intercooler.
A sizeable cut is needed in the crossmember to make room, tho.
(I covered the cut area with rubber trim filled with silicone to prevent rust issues in the future.)
Stainless steel reinforcement plates were mounted, as well.

[Godless Commie]

Mounted the i/c in its place.
What really took the longest was the air flow directing panels.

I worked late into the night for a few days. The trusted laptop was always at my side.

I also used both sides of the radiator cover panel for mounting relays.

And, it does get messy during the install. Oh well..

[Godless Commie]

Here are a few detail pictures.

Namely,
The location of the IAC valve and its vacuum circuit,
The throttle cable, and its bracket
Location of the boost line for the cards
The windshield washer bottle I searched high and low to fit in that opening(made a nifty bracket, too)
And, the ACT sensor modification

[Godless Commie]

aaand, the dreaded heater core inlet. or outlet. whatever. I honestly could not care less at this point.
It would not get out of the way. The air inlet tube would not fit.
So, I took the hose off, flipped it over, cut about an inch from the now bottom part.
I also bent the blockside piping up and back, and cut about an inch from that, as well.
Worked perfectly. Take that...pipe!

Last pic is meaningful.
Look closely, and you'll see that the car is actually running:)

(Threw the PS belt on the first test drive. Was too loose. Reinstalled and tightened, no problem)

[Godless Commie]

I got on the freeway, opened it up and counted 7 lights on the E-Cool card. Does that mean my exhaust could be too restrictive?
Mind you, trying to count the lights driving at almost 140 (miles, that is) is really not that easy.
I may have hit 230 km/h briefly there. It came very, very quickly.

[Steve in VC]

I got on the freeway, opened it up and counted 7 lights on the E-Cool card. Does that mean my exhaust could be too restrictive?
Mind you, trying to count the lights driving at almost 140 (miles, that is) is really not that easy.
I may have hit 230 km/h briefly there. It came very, very quickly.7 lights, ~7000RPM. ~1000RPM per light.

140MPH (isn't that redline in high gear?)- very nice!

[Godless Commie]

Wait.. Am I getting things backwards here?
I was under the impression the lights on the E-Cool card indicated boost.
Something like, 2 psi per light..

[Gman7007]

E-cool lights = 2 psi / light
PC Pro lights = 1000 rpm / light

7 lights = ~14 psi

What is your pulley combo?

[Godless Commie]

I have a 110/65 setup..

I tried one more time, and my wife confirmed 7 lights on one card, and 5 on the other.
The cards look so much alike, I must have confused the two.
Makes sense this way.
7000 rpm, and ~10 psi boost..
I would really suspect a restricted exhaust if boost was at 14 psi..

Is ~10 psi normal for a 110/65 setup?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It would actually be 8-10 PSI and I would think that normal for an intercooled hotside with 110/65 pulley combo.

[Godless Commie]

It would actually be 8-10 PSI and I would think that normal for an intercooled hotside with 110/65 pulley combo.

You said normal..
That can only be good..

Less stuff to worry about, the better. I haven't even had a chance to get the car on the dyno for final tuning yet. Just taking occasional drives, listening to everything, and waiting for the idle to do its learning thing.

[Godless Commie]

Got the car on the dyno today..

Quite a bit of correction was needed:

First, the engine was running too lean (about 16:1 under boost) Pretty much maxed out all settings to get it to a safe 11.5:1 ratio across the board. It got very confusing after a while, but it's safe to say all settings, including the E-Cool were all maxed out.
Power increased significantly.
Some slight ping was heard at the yellow zone, and then the green zone. Minor adjustments did take care of that.

Boost measurement was somewhat surprising, though.. Just about 8 psi, or a hint under that. I was expecting to get about 10 psi. (110/65 pulley combo, TDR intercooler).

Whp reading was just a tick over 190, and max torque came out to be 157.6 pounds.

Do these values seem normal?
Would you think boost is a bit on the low side?
(I guess if the cat was restricted boost numbers would be much higher, right?)

The car is effortlessly fast. No denying that. If I floor the throttle in third gear going at a moderate speed the tires break loose for a while.. (T1R tires)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

OK. You will melt pistons at 16:1. We need to find the problem. It almost seems like they are not seeing proper boost. Where is the boost line connected to the intake manifold?

[Godless Commie]

Here is the connection for the boost line, Tom. I had read your posts regarding the boost line relocation.
http://www.mazdaclubtr.com/forum/gallery/225_17_04_09_11_31_02.jpeg

The thing is, both the lights on the card, as well as an external boost gauge indicated the same (about 8 psi) boost level..

Do you think it will help if I took the intercooler elbows to a muffler shop to have "lips" built into them so the clamps will have something to bite into?
That is the only thing I can think of..

On the other hand, you always say a high flowing system will not yield in very high boost numbers, too.

[Satisaii]

Fuel pressure?

[Godless Commie]

Checking fuel pressure is the next thing on my list..
I am kicking myself for not hooking up a pressure gauge on the fuel line while the car was on the dyno..

[Satisaii]

You should be able to stall the car using the 5th injector. Another thing to check is the connections on that controller.

[Godless Commie]

I double checked all the connections, on all three controllers.
The thing is, I had to turn up everything including the fifth injector to get a safe AFR.
So, I guess I would not be able to stall the car with the 5th injector, at all..

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

You could just be running more flow at less boost than the cards are set for.

Do you have a laptop with a USB connection?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Wait, hold the presses. :) I agree with Satasii. Fuel pressure would do the same thing. Clamp the return hose from the FPR with a vice grip or similar. See if you have sufficient fuel then. If not, it could be the pump and/or the FPR. If it is the FPR, buy a good aftermarket version (~$150) and you can set it wherever you want. Still cheaper and better than the factory one.

[Godless Commie]

I guess I'll have to get on the dyno one more time..

Just curious, tho.. What would the laptop be used for? (Yes I do have one w/usb ports)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

If we have to flash the cards to correct, I will simply send you a programmer and you can do it there.

[Godless Commie]

I understand.
I guess I should look into the fuel pump issue first.

You know, now that I think about it, I did drive the car for quite a while with the tank nearly on empty.
Given the plastic innards of the stock pumps, they do not do so well with very low fuel levels for a couple of reasons:
*they do run "warmer" or hotter than their design temps,
*they tend to suck in "crud".
Just think of all the stuff that you see in a used fuel filter.. All that crud indeed travels through the pump to get there, and it is abrasive stuff. Imagine what it would do to the plastic impeller, the vanes and the gears in the pump.

I have a feeling a static fuel pressure check would yield OK numbers, but would taper off under load.

That's my theory, and I am sticking with it, unless someone (Tom?) convinces me otherwise with some other alternate pump logic..

Also, rather than mailing me a programmer, which I suspect is an expensive piece of equipment, maybe you could mail me the schematics, and I could build one? (I know I would need the software, at least..)
Or, am I too optimistic?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

You are on the right track. If the pump/FPR doesn't do it, I'll send you a programmer. Better than making on. I can email the OS and HEX files.

[Godless Commie]

Thought about it all day.
I'll invest in a Walbro GSS-342, an adjustable FPR, a decent wideband O2 setup and a boost gauge.

I have located everything I need. Just a matter of getting paid, so I can order them.

I'll install the two gauges in the center eyeball vents.
That way, I'll be able to tune the car anytime I feel like it.


There's still the matter of less than 8 psi out of the 110/65 pulley combo.
Wish I had a smoke machine to check for leaks...

[Satisaii]

LOL, I am getting 8 psi out of a 130/65 combo. I am sending the car to Phoenix next week and let the pro's fix it.

[Godless Commie]

LOL, I am getting 8 psi out of a 130/65 combo. I am sending the car to Phoenix next week and let the pro's fix it.

Hmm.
Would you please let us know what the prognosis is?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Let me know when it is on it's way. I have your AEM ignition and would like at least one try at making it work. That BRP hotside should be making 230 or there-about.

[Satisaii]

I transferred the Pilot from Texas to LA, so I can tow it out there myself. Just waiting for the timing to be right.

[MikeyLikesIt]

Here are a few detail pictures.

Namely,
The location of the IAC valve and its vacuum circuit,
The throttle cable, and its bracket
Location of the boost line for the cards
The windshield washer bottle I searched high and low to fit in that opening(made a nifty bracket, too)
And, the ACT sensor modification


I have a hotside too, and I have the IAC on the other side of the firewall (exhaust). Your's seems to be a lot closer to the intake. I'm wondering if setting it up like that might improve my issues with idle dip?

Mike

[Godless Commie]

I mounted the IAC as close to the intake as possible to reduce the "vacuum volume" by using shorter vacuum lines. I thought it would help.

My idle sits at 950 RPM, and occasionally lingers at 1300, after spirited runs. Once I turn my headlights or some other power consuming doodad, like the heater on, goes back down to 950.

I still have a cold start isue. I need to "help" the idle with a very slight throttle applicaiton for abot 60 seconds, then it's fine.
I need to make absolutely certain I do not have vacuum leaks. Hence my Smoke Machine thread under miscallenous...

[MikeyLikesIt]

I did have the smoke test done at a local shop. They did find some leaks that I would have never found.

Like To says "There is no such thing as a small vacuum leak".

Tom, you should print hats that say that...:)

[Godless Commie]

Boy, you do get up early, don't you Mike.. :)
Must be barely 6 am there (assuming you are in CA)

[MikeyLikesIt]

Nope, I'm an east coast-er. Closer to your time...

[Godless Commie]

Makes sense now.. I am 7 hours ahead of you here in Istanbul.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

That and my favorite "More flow, less boost".


I did have the smoke test done at a local shop. They did find some leaks that I would have never found.

Like To says "There is no such thing as a small vacuum leak".

Tom, you should print hats that say that...:)

[BlownMX5]

That and my favorite "More flow, less boost".

It would be fun to see how a room full of uninitiated non-gearheads might interpret that phrase ;). That is a t-shirt classic if I ever saw one. And, deliciously anti-turbo as well.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

This website is rated PG. Don't drift that direction. ;)

[MikeyLikesIt]

Here are a few detail pictures.

Namely,
The location of the IAC valve and its vacuum circuit,
The throttle cable, and its bracket
Location of the boost line for the cards
The windshield washer bottle I searched high and low to fit in that opening(made a nifty bracket, too)
And, the ACT sensor modification

I do notice in the 1st pic that on your TB adapter that the air fitting is on the top-side. Mine's on the bottom and has caused me issues with it craking under the heat from the exhaust header. Do you have the bigger TB? I'm wondering if I can flip mine over?

Also, where did you reroute the line from the top of the SC intake / bypass to?

Thanks

Mike

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

He has an FFS BTB and BTB adaptor.

[MikeyLikesIt]

He has an FFS BTB and BTB adaptor.


I have that too as part of my "Tom-inator" BRP hotside setup. Can I flip mine around? Do I actually have it installed wrong?

[pumpkin]

If you haven't already done it, I highly recommend inverting the TB and relocating the IAC to the supercharger inlet. See pic:
JD

[MikeyLikesIt]

If you haven't already done it, I highly recommend inverting the TB and relocating the IAC to the supercharger inlet. See pic:
JD

Now that is interesting... Where does the IAC mount? I don't remember seeing a place for it on my BTB...

[MX-Drew]

If you haven't already done it, I highly recommend inverting the TB and relocating the IAC to the supercharger inlet. See pic:
JD

Another point here and Tom will correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember something about the vacuum tube to the bypass valve should come from the VDB.

See http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1036&highlight=bypass

[MX-Drew]

Now that is interesting... Where does the IAC mount? I don't remember seeing a place for it on my BTB...

That looks like the standard TB but if I'm wrong I want one of those :yes:

[MikeyLikesIt]

Another point here and Tom will correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember something about the vacuum tube to the bypass valve should come from the VDB.

See http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1036&highlight=bypass


VDB = Vacuum Distribution Block? I don't have one of those... I'l need to figure out where else to mount it.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

You can rotate the TB but not the TB adaptor. I have a new throttle cable bracket we used on the 1.6L (should be the same) that will work. Just to refresh my tired mind, we are talking about the throttle cable ending up on the engine side of the throttle body not the fender side, correct?

You can move the bypass hose from the outlet piece on the supercharger and put a tee in the hose coming from the throttle body adaptor and connect there. Don't need the VDB. If you have cruise control and want it to work again when you climb hills, move it from the intake manifold to another tee in the TBA hose. You will now climb steep hills without loosing any speed and without the cruise control dropping out.

I have that too as part of my "Tom-inator" BRP hotside setup. Can I flip mine around? Do I actually have it installed wrong?

[BlownMX5]

Flipping the TB is nice in that it puts the idle adjustment right on top, easy to get to. But isn't the TPS now on the bottom where you can't get to it? I guess you could adjust it with the TB off the engine though. I have a MAC TB, does this work for me too? I hate adjusting my idle, grrr.

[MikeyLikesIt]

You can rotate the TB but not the TB adaptor. I have a new throttle cable bracket we used on the 1.6L (should be the same) that will work. Just to refresh my tired mind, we are talking about the throttle cable ending up on the engine side of the throttle body not the fender side, correct?

You can move the bypass hose from the outlet piece on the supercharger and put a tee in the hose coming from the throttle body adaptor and connect there. Don't need the VDB. If you have cruise control and want it to work again when you climb hills, move it from the intake manifold to another tee in the TBA hose. You will now climb steep hills without loosing any speed and without the cruise control dropping out.


My throttle bracket is now on the engine side, is that what you mean?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

My throttle bracket is now on the engine side, is that what you mean?

Yes. If you flip it, I can't help with the throttle cable bracket. I only have one to work on the engine side of the blower.

[MikeyLikesIt]

Yes. If you flip it, I can't help with the throttle cable bracket. I only have one to work on the engine side of the blower.

But if it is already on the engine side and I flip the TB, it won't work?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

But if it is already on the engine side and I flip the TB, it won't work?

Yes. I do not have a throttle cable to mount on the fender side of the blower. It is ONLY designed to work on the engine side. Which, if I understand, is where it already is on your car, right?

[MikeyLikesIt]

Yup on the engine side.

[Godless Commie]

Sorry I have been quiet for a while..
It's just that I have a huge project I need to deliver soon.
I have been working day and night to make the deadline. I mean, I barely even drive the car, except for short errands to the grocery store.

I am still waiting for the AFPR, the Walbro pump, the boost gauge and the wideband setup. Hopefully, once I finish and deliver the project (which, I have agreed to pay a fine on a per day basis for each day past the deadline), I will have time to install and retest everything.

I did pick up some mean looking clamps to take care of the suspected vacuum/boost leak issue.

http://www.tuzlahortum.com.tr/web/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/c8028383afa62e7c553a5d3002cba6eb.jpg


Next I will build a smoke machine to check the system for leaks under pressure.

I'll keep the forum posted about what I can accomplish once I have the time to work on the car.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Be careful with those clamps. They have the power to crush aluminum tube.

[Godless Commie]

I finally had some time to devote to the car, and went to work on the car.

The first item on the list was a pair of gauges: A mechanical vacuum/boost gauge, and an innovate wideband AFR.

As far as AFR goes, it varies between 14-15 off boost as it should, and 11 to 10.5 under boost.

I did a vacuum leak test using the newly installed afr gauge: I had a friend watch and call out numbers as I shot carb cleaner around the suspected vacuum leaks. Sure enough, the number dropped to 13s and occasional 12s (at idle) when I sprayed around the clamps - all eight of them. I promptly replaced the clamps and installed the monster clamps I had bought. They HOLD.
The vacuum is steady at 20 in/hg, and I still have some occasional stalling problems.. :(

What puzzles me is, nothing changed with the boost.. No matter what I do, I cannot get more than 7 psi. (I believe I might have seen 7.5 psi only once).
I mean, I have a 120/65 pulley combo.
And, I used black silicone on all the bolted connections to make sure there would be no leaks..
When I spoke with Jim, the previous owner of my setup, he told me he was getting 10.5 psi (12 before the TDR I/C, 10.5 after the I/C was installed).

Could the bypass valve have suffered some sort of damage during shipping?
(The bracket was bent on the blower by the time I had received it.) Would that much jarring cause internal damage to the blower itself?

Could it be chalked away to the flow characteristics of the '99 head and the better exhaust?
(BTW, I had the same boost numbers before and after replaced the stock exhaust. I got a killer deal on a cat back SS Borla system and had it installed!)

Does 7 psi and 190 WHp make sense?
Does 120/65 and 7 psi make sense?

Sorry for asking this many questions all at once.. I had to be away from the forum for a while with work up to my eyeballs...

[jwalton]

7 supercharged psi and 190whp seems not to make sense to me. The blower is not as efficient at creating boost pressure as a turbo would be (read: hotter air temps) and then there are flow losses through the intercooler. I may be totally off base here, but I would guess that if you were only making 7psi, your whp number would be lower.

[Godless Commie]

I just realized the pulley size in my previous post is incorrect.
I have a 110/65 mm combination.

Jim, I checked the boost using multiple gauges, at different pickup points on the intake manifold with same results.
The dash gauge is teed off of the same vac/boost line that "feeds" the cards.

Would it be advisable to remove the top of the blower to check the bypass valve?

[Steve in VC]

I like your idea of using starter fluid to detect vacuum leaks.

I had boost problems on my coldside until I tightened all bolts holding the supercharger to the intake. this acted like a reed valve, sealed on vacuum, and open on boost.

The problem is getting boost for significant time without being in gear, but blipping the throttle will boost for a bit. I wonder if painting the seams with dish soap and see bubbles form if boost is leaking.

Good luck,
Steve

[FormerDatsun510Man]

On a Hotside, 7psi seems a bit low for a 110/65 pulley. With a big TB and air/air IC here is what I observed on mine:

115/65: 10psi
120:65: 11psi
126/65: 12psi
130/65: 13psi

The stock TB would drop the boost by 1psi. Keep in mind that all readings were done at engine redline (7000rpm). The reading at 5000rpm is about 2psi lower.

As far as hp goes, this will sound like a sort of overly simplistic estimate, but I found it works quite close on a Hotside to say each psi of boost equals a gain of 10rwhp. At 13psi, my setup made 240rwhp which is 130rwhp more than the stock 110rwhp. For 190rwhp, about 8psi is about the expected amount and also about what would expect with a 110mm pulley. It is possible that it could even need 1 or 2psi more depending on the efficiency of the setup. With the stock intake manifodl and stock TB the efficiency is lower and I could see potentially 9-10psi being required to reach that same 190rwhp. Also, keep in mind the effect of the intercooler design. I found that the TDR tube/fine design Air/Air intercooler was the most efficient. The smaller BRP bar/plate design Air/Air intercooler was less efficient.

Bill

[Godless Commie]

Thanks Bill..

For what it's worth, I took the top off the blower today to inspect the bypass assembly.
All seems to be fine. No gap whatsoever when it closes..
I also used black silicone in addition to the gasket for good measure when I reassembled it. Retightened the clamps, readjusted the idle with the new vacuum restrictor (thanks, Tom!) and test drove it.

The thing is, I can easily spin the tires in third gear (T1Rs, 195/50/15 @ 27 psi) and it really pulls hard, but when I get on it, the boost goes up to 5 psi and then climbs to 7. Nothing more. AFR is at 10.5:1.

I am thinking about upping the AFR to 12:1.
My gas mileage has dropped drastically since the S/C install. I used to get almost 500 Km to a tank, last tank lasted a mere 347 Km on the highway.
Would it be advisable to set AFR @ 12:1?
(I would do it after I install the walbro, the adjustable FPR, and the fuel rail.)

[FormerDatsun510Man]

12:1 is where you want the a/f ratio. At 10.5:1 you are giving up a good bit of power, probably at least 10rwhp. I'm surprised with your gas mileage observations. On my setup I typically get only 2-3mpg lower around town (about 20-23mpg with the SC vs. 22-25 without it) and the same highway mileage (about 25-30mpg depending on my average speed and whether I have the top up or down). If your gas mileage drops that significantly either you really are using the power a lot (are you cruising at much higher speeds with the SC?) or there is something amiss with the a/f ratio when cruising. Does your a/f ratio show stoich (14.5-15:1) when cruising on longer trips?

Bill

[rins]

So, I could just be lucky: It may be an exceptionally well broken in engine (I am the second owner), The "European spec" advantage theory may be for real, or the dyno may be waaaay out of adjustment. (this last bit is highly unlikely for the reasons I explained above, actually.)


"Euro spec" NB's has a better intake cam (this one actually: http://949racing.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=195) and better flowing exhaust compare to US models :)

[Godless Commie]

Thank you.. This explains a lot.

So would the "better cam" explain the low boost issue by means of better flow?
(If that's the case I just will have to go for the 130mm pulley. Tom, are you there?) :)

[Steve in VC]

Thank you.. This explains a lot.

So would the "better cam" explain the low boost issue by means of better flow?
(If that's the case I just will have to go for the 130mm pulley. Tom, are you there?) :)Yes. SoCalPat increased valve diameter by 1mm, lost boost because more went into the cylinder, thus, gained power.

But a better cam for NA may not be a better cam for FI if it has more overlap. That lets more boost leak into the exhaust (I'm repeating what I've heard - nothing first hand). If that is the case, it could shorten the life of your CAT. Tom or Bill?

My gas mileage dropped, because I can't keep my foot off the floor. It gets a little better when you are driving in places that don't allow you to enjoy yourself so much. In my case, that is the freeway - but your earlier post indicated they don't have speed limits where you are. Air resistance goes up by the cube of the speed, twice as fast takes 8 times more power.....

[Godless Commie]

12:1 is where you want the a/f ratio. At 10.5:1 you are giving up a good bit of power, probably at least 10rwhp. I'm surprised with your gas mileage observations. On my setup I typically get only 2-3mpg lower around town (about 20-23mpg with the SC vs. 22-25 without it) and the same highway mileage (about 25-30mpg depending on my average speed and whether I have the top up or down). If your gas mileage drops that significantly either you really are using the power a lot (are you cruising at much higher speeds with the SC?) or there is something amiss with the a/f ratio when cruising. Does your a/f ratio show stoich (14.5-15:1) when cruising on longer trips?

Bill

Aha.. I had a feeling we had gone a bit too far to the "safer side" with the AFR.. I'll definitely move it up to 12:1 once the fuel goodies arrive.
And yes, my highway mileage did drop down that much. I cruise around 160-170 Kms (100+ Mph) on the freeway. Bringing it down to 120 (75 Mph) where the engine is just below the magical 4200 RPM level is a bit of a challenge.

I have a 4.11 diff. I am thinking about the 3.9 or the 3.63 in the future.
(97 octane is $7.90/gal as we speak over here!)

[Godless Commie]

In my case, that is the freeway - but your earlier post indicated they don't have speed limits where you are.

The answer is both yes and no..
There are two separate highway systems (not routes, systems) criscrossing Istanbul.. One is the E5, where there are radar systems and police patrols, where you could get a ticket forspeeding, the other one is the TEM (Trans Euroean Motorway) where you could - despite the fact that there is a 120 Km/h posted speed limit - fly if you could. No one cares how fast you go there. It is possible to cruise with both needles buried, and tey some one does blow by you as if you were standing still.
Funny thing is, the fastest cars I have seen are the diesel Audis. Especially the 2.0 TD. They generate maniacal levels of torque and Hp.
Al the Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Bentleys, Aston Martins and Maserratis I have seen are idling at second gear on the boulevards.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

I think that it may be possible that at around 100mph you might have been going into a little boost so that the AF dropped to 10.5:1? We clamp the TPS signal to a pretty high value (around 60-70%) as soon as it hits any boost to ensure the stock ECU doesn't try any funny business. I could see where perhaps this would cause it to jump into open loop perhaps a little sooner than it would have when everything was stock. I haven't heard of it as a problem here in the U.S., but perhaps it could be a rich running issue when running really high speeds over there in Europe and beyond? I wish I could cruise here at over 100mph to find out :).

As far as different cams and their suitability with boost, we haven't looked into that. The Coldside has a power "curve" (and I use that term loosely) that seems to indicate it wants to keep revving. Based on this logic I would think that a higher lift/duration cam that would raise the rpm at which it would make power normally aspirated would help things as it would likely reduce the boost for a given pulley and allow more net flow with less heat. With cam gears, one could play with the overlap independent of the longer duration. FWIW, Tom found that with stock cams the stock cam overlap ended up being the best. However, I could see with different cams than stock this may no longer be the case.

Bill

[Godless Commie]

I get the feeling I may have offended Tom somehow..

As far as the gas mileage goes, I can tell when I am on and off boost. At high cruise speeds, it's definitely on boost till I get to the elevated cruise speeds - AFR goes down to 10.5 to 11 - then if I am sustaining, say 100 Mph, it stays off boost, and I see 14s or so on my wideband.
Most of the problem is about approaching slower traffic. Then it's on boost till I regain speed.

I have been really thinking about a larger pulley..
Should I?
If I should, what size would you recommend?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

No way possible for any of my friends to offend me. Let me explain the last two weeks:

Last September I started getting Sinus headaches. I took Sinus medicine and aspirin/Tylenal/Advil, etc. They got better and worse and better and worse. Seemed to depend on what was planted down here. Anyhow, Fast Forward :) to two weeks ago. They had been pretty good for several weeks and then, back again and aspirin wouldn't help. So, off to the ENT doctor. He gave me some real medicine and added that I should see a MD GP as my blood pressure was a little high and my pulse was a 'little' fast. Tuesday I took some of his sinus pills and Wednesday another dose and made an appointment for blood workup. From Friday a week ago to that Tuesday when I returned from the ENT, I was sleeping a lot. Wednesday morning, I just couldn't stay awake. Dragged myself to the GP. Nurse said 'yep, BP 136/108 is a bit high but best I can read, youre pulse is over 140'. They really had to work at keeping me awake and I was on Oxygen. They did the blood work and found that I have two problems. First, a heart problem and second, Graves desease. Both can be kept in line with a daily pill. Monday morning, day before yesterday, was the first day I have been out of bed since Firday 8 days before. Monday, yesterday and today I have been working at staying up and getting back into the flow. I apologize to all for being short on the phone the last 10 days or so, I was just trying to stay awake. :)


I get the feeling I may have offended Tom somehow..

As far as the gas mileage goes, I can tell when I am on and off boost. At high cruise speeds, it's definitely on boost till I get to the elevated cruise speeds - AFR goes down to 10.5 to 11 - then if I am sustaining, say 100 Mph, it stays off boost, and I see 14s or so on my wideband.
Most of the problem is about approaching slower traffic. Then it's on boost till I regain speed.

I have been really thinking about a larger pulley..
Should I?
If I should, what size would you recommend?

[Satisaii]

Glad to hear that it can be controlled with pills. I hope you get better soon.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Thanks. However, let's not drift this thread. :) I'm in enough hot water with several of you already and don't need to make things worse.

[Godless Commie]

I feel like a complete ass.. A selfish one at that, too.

[Steve in VC]

My wife has Hashimoto's disease, another thyroid based ailment. It has been difficult to keep the right level of medication, so she swings a bit hyper to bit hypo thyroid. During her hypothyroid swings, she can hardly move.

I'm (we're) glad they found the cause.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Please don't. You had no way of knowing.


I feel like a complete ass.. A selfish one at that, too.

[Godless Commie]

I hope you are feeling better, Tom..

[Godless Commie]

I realize "installing a hotside MP62 on a '99" is not just merely bolting on a blower, an I/C, and hooking up the necessary electronics if you are chasing after the 210 - 220 whp level..

So, I have installed a boost gauge, along with the Innovate LC1 wideband. I opted for the center eyeball vents for easy glancing while I drive.
(The diagnostic LED for the LC1 can be seen just to the upper left corner of the cubby hole next to the clock)
Incidentally, the wideband has thrown a code 8 a couple times during torturous stop and go traffic on especially hot days. I guess an oversize aluminum heatsink will be next for the O2 to deal with the overheating issue.

(Yes, the pic was taken at 1:51 am. And, The dirt and the dust on the dash is horrible, but I drive with the top down all day, and do not have the time to wash and clean the car on a daily basis.)

[Godless Commie]

Next, I replaced the fuel pump.
It's a very straightforward affair. Remove the parcel shelf*, then the access cover to the fuel tank area, and "pop" the two fuel lines and the only electrical connector, and pull the pump assembly out.
In went the GSS342, AKA the 255 lph Walbro, with a new sock and a neoprene sleeve to cut down the noise.

I have replaced a fuel pump with no testing whatsoever for the first time in my life in this case. I have always pressure and scope tested (the funny squiggly lines on the screen tell you everything about the contact points, gears, coils, etc..), but being so intimate with this car, I simply knew the pump had seen better days just by feel.

The replacement proved me right.
I mean, I had to absolutely max out the PcPro and the ECool cards to get to safe AF levels before. Now it's a breeze.

* I know you do not necessariliy need to remove the parcal shelf at all, but I went ahead and replaced my rear speakers with some very serious 8" Pioneer three ways (360 Watts each!) while I was there. The speakers had been patiently waiting on a shelf, to be installed once I got there for the fuel pump.
(So, I have a total of 6 drivers in the car now.. A pair of Pioneer 250 Watt 6x9" speakers in the doors, two 120 Watt tweeters above them, and the 8" three way 360 Watt Pioneers in the back. All driven by a 600 Watt amp and a Pioneer 5200 series CD player. Nice sound, even with the top down. I enjoy Pİnk Floyd and Tool when I am alone in the car.)

[Godless Commie]

A not so good pic of the rear speakers while I am at it..

[Godless Commie]

Where was I.. Oh, the fuel stuff.

Next came the FFS fuel rail. I had also bought an adjustable FPR, so that went in there, as well.
I ended up rerouting the fuel lines. Originally both feed and return were in the front, between the stock throttle body and the block. I moved the feed line to the back of the head under the intake manifold. As for the return line, a short tube exits the fuel rail, crosses under the DTB to connect to the AFPR. Excess fuel then exits the regulator, and returns to the tank via the stock return line.
I tried to locate the AFPR in the most convenient spot in terms of access, proximity to the fuel rail and gauge visibility.

I also reused the metal gasket of the upper intake manifold, and smeared black silicone on both sides of it for good measure.
I blocked the intake runners with stuffed paper towels and zip tied the VICS actautor shut to prevent any regrettable "clunk" noises once I restart the engine. Cleaned the intake innards as best as I could while I was in there, too.
I used heavy duty zip ties to keep the fuel lines away from touching anything for fear of chafing and resulting leaks.
The injectors received all new o-rings and seals, thanks to Tom. The old bottom seals were shrunken somewhat and rock hard, as suspected.
Checked and double checked all fuel connections to the point of paranoia.
They do not leak at all.

[Godless Commie]

Aaaand, here's how it idles..

(And that 240 mark on the speedo is not there for looks, it's a reality now..)

[Godless Commie]

I also got a great/unbeatable and a very unexpected deal on a SS Borla Catback exhaust system.
Someone had ordered it, had it installed and then changed their mind. I bought the entire thing for roughly 125 bucks off the guy. Just shipping that thing to Turkey would cost a whole lot more than that..

So, that's in the car now, too.
That thing does not like low rpms.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I felt like a new man until last night's vote. :(

I hope you are feeling better, Tom..

[Godless Commie]

About the wideband O2:

I had the bung welded just a couple of inches before the cat.
Forgot to mention it in my earlier post.

And the line for the vacuum/boost gauge tees off the boost line for the cards.


Next in line are:

*A bigger pulley for more boost,
*wrapping the headers,
*insulating the exhaust system,
*installing heat insulation in the transmission tunnel and the firewall,
*replacing the radiator (cracked at the plastic to metal joint, dual core aluminum rad is on the way),
*installing a new O2 sensor, and
*having a complete A/C system installed.

I still have one more trip to the dyno, of course..

[rins]

Aaaand, here's how it idles..

(And that 240 mark on the speedo is not there for looks, it's a reality now..)


I can confirm that. 240km/h is doable even with low boost (0.5bar) setup :scooter:

[Godless Commie]

It is not "doable" that often.
My wife screams a lot anytime I get to 200 or above. An audible speed limiter!
That and braking. I don't stomp on the brakes for fear of being rear ended, rather ease the speed down and leave plenty of room for evasive action. She hates that. She says I should just stop the instant I see brake lights ahead of me!
Loads of fun:)

[Godless Commie]

My all new all aluminum, 52mm radiator arrived today!
I have been driving around with a large bottle of water for the past week or so for fear of overheating the engine with my cracked stock radiator...

No, it's not a Koyo or a Mishimoto.. I paid 119 bucks for it plus shipping. Can't beat that. I had examined a Koyo a week ago. The one I got looks no worse or inferior to Koyo in any way. All the mounting bosses, fan mounting points, etc are there. It's got a new cap on it, the welds all look very good, fins are standart, water jackets look very good.

I can comfortably say I am very pleased with it even before installing it in the car.
And, the O2 sensor arrived, as well. Delphi, universal four wire.
Pics to follow soon.

I will install the radiator, replace the O2, remove the blower to wrap the headers, install heat shielding, replace the crank pulley with the 130mm I am getting from Tom, and dyno tune the car (again) this week.

(Just finished a 30 (thirty) hour marathon - along with my wife - on the computer to deliver a project . I can't even think straight. Threw my sorry self in the pool to keep my brain from overheating, now off to bed I go for 12 hours..)

[Godless Commie]

I just finished installing the new radiator...

All went very well. No fitment broblems - all I had to was to shave a bit of off the bottom right attachment points of the stock fan.
I ran the engine up to temp, burped the system, cycled the fans on a few times, idled it for about half an hour, no problems..
Took the car out for a test drive up some long hills under boost, I swear the temp gauge sits a bit lower than before.
Used 2 liters of antifreeze.

All in all, I would recommend this radiator to any miata owner.

The guy, David, sells them on eBay. His user bame is racing1998.

Pics to follow just as soon as I am done with dinner.

[Godless Commie]

Radiator pics..

Well, this is my way of cooling the engine bay down when I don't have time to wait around.
Very effective.

Second pic is cooling system for the car, refreshment system for me..

[Godless Commie]

The radiator had no fitment problems.

Stock fan fit there perfectly. (had to shave off the lower right bracket a bit to make room for the swaybar, that's all..

I simply transferred the rubber mount doodads over. (not inserted all the way on purpose, for a more descriptive picture.)

The difference in capacity between the stock and the new radiator is fairly apparent.

[Godless Commie]

Finished.
Not bad for less than 120 bucks..

Last pic is my universal second fan.. Comes on with the main fan. I used a relay to power it directly from the fuse box main output (with a fused line) which is triggered by the +12V lead of the main fan. So, when the main fan comes on, it triggers a the relay I installed for the second one, and has almost no extra load on the circuit that way. (current needed to reigger a relay would be less than negligible on such a high amp circuit, anyway..)

[Godless Commie]

I had a bit of free time today!

So, I took the car apart AGAIN!

I was sick and tired of the heat in the engine bay. The air intake was gulping all that hot air, too. I mean, that is never good.

So, I wrapped, I mean wrapped the hell out of the headers. Huge difference.

Removed the blower and all associated bracketry. Didn't break a thing.

(Now that I look at my headers, they don't look anything like the '01 factory headers used in the states.. Weird.)

I used regular industrial manifold wrap. I know exhaust temps can spike, so I wanted to be really safe and used ceramic wool which is rated up to a constant 2360F.
I wrapped the ceramic wool on the pipes in sections, then I went over the whole thing with the exhaust wrap. I used steel wire to secure everything.

Best thing I did was to soak everything in water before I wrapped the headers. The material can be pulled tight, is more piable, does not dust at all, and it does not get messy.

[Godless Commie]

This is how I kept proceeding.
Wasn't pretty at his stage, at all..

I went all the way down to the O2 sensor at this time. Planning to take it down to the cat in the next phase.
That and some serious heatshielding on the transmission tunnel and the firewall.

[Godless Commie]

Installed everything back once I was satisfied with the exhaust, and started and ran the car for about half an hour.

The smoke, the vapors, the weird smell!
(It pretty much went away soon enough..)

All is good, tho. I went for a boosted drive, came back, popped the hood and I could easily grab the headers.. (not just touch, I could hold them.)

Total investment: Less than 20 bucks.

[Godless Commie]

FORGET ABOUT ALL THOSE BOOST WORRIES!

I just installed the incredibly cool FFS sticker I received from Tom, and voila!
I have 10 (TEN!) pounds of boost instantly at 3000 rpm!!

It was a rather short test drive, and I did not dare to get on the highway at 1am without thoroughly testing everything, but, like they say, OOooh YEA!

Made maybe 3-4 pulls under boost in 3rd and 4th gears.
The car is twice as fast as before, and is absolutely like a bullet in 3rd gear.
I never had a chance to go past 5000-5500 rpm in either gear, ran out of road (not off the road, just that there was not enough road ahead of me..)
I have never experienced anything (on wheels, that I was driving)accelerating like this.. And I have had the privilege of driving more than a few impressive machines, like an AMG Hammer Mercedes, a modified 454 truck, our GTX race car when I used to live in the states, an actual Nascar race truck (yes, I raced it, too) and a few others that I can remember off the top of my head..
Holy shmoly..
You know, I went ahead and installed the 130 mm pulley while I was fiddling with the car, too.. That may have something to do with the performance in addition to the sticker maybe...

Aaaand, I have plenty of fuel.. I remember seeing low 10s and mid 9s on the wideband.

I bought a stethoscope that I will be modifying for listening for knock tomorrow. With the help of a rather daring friend, the modified stethoscope and the wideband, I'll dial everything in on a nice and wide portion of the freeway that was just opened, and has virtually no traffic these days. It has nice, long climbs where I can load the engine, too.

I thought it was pretty fast with the 110/65 combo.
The 130 is a beast.
You just had to be there.

[Steve in VC]

FORGET ABOUT ALL THOSE BOOST WORRIES!

I just installed the incredibly cool FFS sticker I received from Tom, and voila!
I have 10 (TEN!) pounds of boost instantly at 3000 rpm!!

It was a rather short test drive, and I did not dare to get on the highway at 1am without thoroughly testing everything, but, like they say, OOooh YEA!

Made maybe 3-4 pulls under boost in 3rd and 4th gears.
The car is twice as fast as before, and is absolutely like a bullet in 3rd gear.
I never had a chance to go past 5000-5500 rpm in either gear, ran out of road (not off the road, just that there was not enough road ahead of me..)
I have never experienced anything (on wheels, that I was driving)accelerating like this.. And I have had the privilege of driving more than a few impressive machines, like an AMG Hammer Mercedes, a modified 454 truck, our GTX race car when I used to live in the states, an actual Nascar race truck (yes, I raced it, too) and a few others that I can remember off the top of my head..
Holy shmoly..
You know, I went ahead and installed the 130 mm pulley while I was fiddling with the car, too.. That may have something to do with the performance in addition to the sticker maybe...

Aaaand, I have plenty of fuel.. I remember seeing low 10s and mid 9s on the wideband.

I bought a stethoscope that I will be modifying for listening for knock tomorrow. With the help of a rather daring friend, the modified stethoscope and the wideband, I'll dial everything in on a nice and wide portion of the freeway that was just opened, and has virtually no traffic these days. It has nice, long climbs where I can load the engine, too.

I thought it was pretty fast with the 110/65 combo.
The 130 is a beast.
You just had to be there.I have a 120 on the way - now I want a 130. I should never have read this post.....

Let me know when the awe is replaced with a big grin.

Has the TV show happen yet? How did that go? If not, you have more performance and an FFS sticker to show them.

Thanks,
Steve

[Godless Commie]

Yes, the show was taped last week.
It'll be on this Saturday.

The interview portion was really long. Since the whole segment will be roughly 9 minutes long, I have no idea what they will edit out.

Maybe I should start looking into a 145 mm pulley.. :)

[Steve in VC]

Maybe I should start looking into a 145 mm pulley.. :)Read post 100 first.

http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1526&page=10

[Godless Commie]

I was only kidding about the 145.

As far as tuning goes, I had read and reread Bill's post you had pointed at.
As I have mentioned in my earlier post, I do have plenty of headroom with the fuel setup now. I'll do just what Bill prescribes.
Maybe I will not have to retard and sacrifice timing at all..

I'll turn off the Ecool, bring fuel to about 13:1, and then go to 12:1 using the 5th injector.

I am guessing that should be sufficient.

Bill, Tom, please feel free to chime in anytime you like. :)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Sounds like a plan.

Sounds like a rocket now. 105mm pulleys are boring. ;)

[FormerDatsun510Man]

With an intercooled Hotside and a 130 pulley you probably will need at least 2 deg of retard at high rpm to keep it safe. You may be able to do a dyno pull or two to redline with no timing retard though. I do suggest that you make sure it is no leaner than 12:1 from 4000rpm to redline. The higher the boost, the richer the mixture should be. I did find on my Hotside that I got some max power pulls with a 12.5:1 mixture up top, but I don't think it is worth walking the line for 5rwhp. It isn't until you dip down below 11.5:1 that you will notice power will drop much. Even then, in the mid rpm as rich as 11:1 doesn't hurt much. My point? A half a point rich is fine. A half a point lean isn't :). Also, with an intercooler, the 5th injector for cooling is less of an issue... you're really just using the 5th injector to supplement the main injectors so you have enough fuel. I think though that setting the main injectors so they alone yield approx. a 13:1 a/f (and please don't exceed 5000rpm and abe careful with any knock!) and then use the 5th injector to hit 12:1 is a good starting point. The stock Miata manifold isn't the greatest for mixing air and fuel is the reason I think it is best to be a little more conservative with the 5th injector setting on a Hotside. On a Coldside, I think a little differently, as that manifold is really just an extremely turbulent mixing plenum. With a Hotside, the flow is a lot more laminar, which I think is the reason that the Air/Air IC'd setups in the past have seen 260+rwhp with big pulleys and big intercoolers. But it is also a reason that I think caution should be exercised with a single extra injector and going for bigger power. I would limit the single extra injector to about 220rwhp, maybe 230. I think you will be right about there with your setup tuned right.

That's my long winded answer :).

Bill

[FormerDatsun510Man]

And really nice work on your engine GC. You have all the right stuff done from what I see. I concur with you on how fast they go with a 130 pulley. If you think the 130 pulley is fast, if only you could have ridden in the 300rwhp Hotside R4 with a 150 pulley :). Well, it might have been closer to a true 270-280rwhp on the street I figure, but that thing pulled like a V8 under the hood in 6th gear!

Bill

[Godless Commie]

Thank you..

I am currently seeing low 10s to mid 9s in my AFR with a 44-45 psi rail pressure. If anything, I can go all the way up to 60 psi. That's what the thin red injectors (that I have) run with the returnless systems, anyway.

Bill, what's your take on the powertrain losses in an NB please?

If one sees 220 WHp, what would you think the crank Hp be?
I mean , there are quite a few different schools of thought on that..

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The stock Miata seems to loose about 30-35. I think they will go up a little but not a lot. 40? So, 250-260 would be my guess but Bill is better at that stuff.


Bill, what's your take on the powertrain losses in an NB please?

If one sees 220 WHp, what would you think the crank Hp be?
I mean , there are quite a few different schools of thought on that..

[FormerDatsun510Man]

The rwhp I quote is that measured on a Dynojet. People smarter than me found that for a Miata, the Dynojet seems to read consistently 26hp lower than the crank hp... regardless of the power level. I know it doesn't seem to make sense (what would a 27 crank hp measure on a Dynojet then... 1rwhp?), but I found in the performance simulation I wrote that the acceleration times worked pretty accurately this way and not nearly as accurately when I added a percent back in. I think the reason for this is that a Dynojet is not measuring the true rwhp. It is measuring the acceleration of a big drum and using the inertia of the drum + fudge factor to arrive at the "rwhp". The problem with this is the rotating parts of the engine and drivetrain add a very significant inertia that is not known by the Dynojet. It can only be estimated and varies by car to car and by gear to gear. For example, the MOI contributed by the engine speed parts (pistons, rods, crank, flywheel, clutch, etc.) with a gear ratio of 2:1 is 4 times the MOI of a gear ratio of 1:1 (since the MOI is proportional to the square of the overall gear ratio). And obviously the mass of these parts, radius of gyration vary greatly from car to car. This is significant too. The equivalent rwhp in the various gears from this inertial loss can be greater than 30% in 1st gear vs. 4th for example. No easy way to measure this so the Dynojet uses an "average" number and then backtracks that out of the calculation to arrive at an estimated whp. That is why they want you to run in a high gear like 4th. Nothing special about a gear ratio of 1:1, it is just that it corresponds (on most cars) to a gear that is tall enough to not contribute "too much" inertia from the drivetrain and engine parts yet it isn't so tall that the load is high and the engine generates a lot of heat (and then you loss real output).

Mustang, or load type dynos, on the other hand come a lot closer to measuring steady state whp... or the actual whp in other words. If you add about 18% to a Mustang dyno reading (the number I found works well in my simulation for rwd cars) you get a very close approximate of the crank hp.

The above observations are based on getting the right acceleration times that corresponded to my real life drag racing experiences and also what I saw with data found on the internet for guys that drag raced and had Dynojet or Mustang dyno charts and putting them in my car performance simulation. In fact, the car performance program I wrote used hundrends of cars that I researched in magazine articles and anything I could get my hands on to get predictable results. Over a period of now nearly 20 years, I have refined the coefficients and modelling in that program to the point that it accurately will predict the acceleration of a top fuel dragster to a VW microbus. Remember, though it is really just an estimate. The only real way would be to pull the engine out and put it on an engine dyno. The only problem there is even engine dynos vary lol.

In short, add 26hp to the Dynojet rwhp numbers I quote and you will be pretty close to SAE-net crank hp numbers you would hear reported if that engine were a production engine and quote by the manufacturers. So 220rwhp (Dynojet) = 246 SAE-net (crank hp). To figure out Mustang dyno rwhp take the crank hp and divide by 1.18. So 220rwhp (Dynojet) = (220 + 26)/1.18 = 208rwhp (Mustang).

Bill

[Godless Commie]

One interesting development:

First time I test drove the car, it was 1am, and the temp was rather cool, in the (I am guessing here) upper 60s range..

Yesterday, during the day (high 80s, possibly 90something weather) there was an episode of very brief ping the first time I got on boost.

It would go away if I were to pedal the car, and would not happen in subsequent boost events.
Meaning, it would only ping very briefly, and then it would not ping at all during the rest of the drive if I were on ond aff the boost as traffic permitted.

That got me thinking that the brief ping is not a timing issue..
Either the air entering the chambers is not cool enough, and once it gets moving (through the I/C) it cools down in a hurry (and no more ping), or, the fuel is not reacting fast enough the very first time..

Any thoughts, similar experiences on this?
Am I waaaaay off base here?

(I will go ahead and pull timing to avoid this situation, of course. I have no intention of gambling in a matter so delicate that could lead to blowing pistons to pieces.)

[Godless Commie]

Almost forgot..

I had to get gas from a Shell station the other day. (I had to, almost ran out of gas)
I always use the same BP station, and have had no issues to this day with their gasoline quality.

Maybe I should run this batch out and try again with BP gas.

(Wish we had Chevron over here. Ford GM and Chrysler use Chevron when they send their vehicles to the EPA for emissions testing and certification)

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Do you have the PC Pro main card? If so, turn up the Green-Blue and see if that helps with the tip-in ping. That adjusts the amount of fuel you get with sudden throttle openings... the accelerator pump function. On an intercooled hotside you need more fuel during that point because there is a lot more air volume being filled during the sudden throttle opening.

However, the best solution is to get your car on a dyno and tune it properly. This sort of thing gets more crucial when you go with the bigger pulleys. Do you have dynos available there?

Bill

[Godless Commie]

Yes, we do have dyno facilities, but it gets expensive.
Last time, I paid about $300 for less than an hour's worth of tuning and 3-4 pulls...
I mean, my wife is pretty understanding and all, but I do not want her to buy a gun over this matter, if you know what I mean. ;)

Oh, another thing: PcPro is virtually unknown here. Operators would not know what to do, and have to resort to trial and error. They are used to the AEM stuff.

I was thinking about tuning it myself as described in one of my earlier posts.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Bill, wouldn't he actually turn it down to get it to come on with less load?

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Nope :). All of the lights on the PC Pro Main adjust the amount of fuel with more lights indicating more fuel. The only exception to this is the red-blue which adjusts the load for the entire fuel curve (not the AP function).

Bill

[Godless Commie]

I spoke with my friend who had tuned and dynoed my car with the previous setup.
Much to my surprise, I was told there would be no charge to tune the car once again. He said he would tune, adjust and test till I would be satisfied. Yay!

So, I'll go in as soon as get back in town from my vacation.
(Typing this by the pool, as we speak, ahem..)

I was concerned with the pinging and detonation - even though I am careful to avoıd boost these days - and pulled the timing back as far as I could at all rpm ranges. Set the fuel roughly to 11 or so.
Car is a real dog this way, but I know it will be safe till it gets on the dyno.

(Tom, you guys spoiled me rotten.. Here I say "the car is a real dog" with maximum retard under boost, and it still leaves everyone in the dust on the freeway :) )

[Godless Commie]

One more thing:

I spoke with two respectable tuners on the phone here..

They both insisted that I should not see anything leaner than 11.5 with the gasoline and the general conditions here.
Basically, a solid 11 is what they recommend.
They say 12 would be OK in the US, but not here.

I shall heed their earnest warning.

[Godless Commie]

Spent a good part of today on the dyno..

No ping whatsoever, steady 11s all the way to redline, a very steady Hp curve...

Definitiely over 200 Whp, maybe over 210 even.
Dyno had calibration issues, could not get accurate numbers.

I'll have a measurement elsewhere in the coming days.

Car felt like a rocket on the freeway on the way home.
Tom, Bill, and Jim, I can't thank you guys enough. Thanks a million!

Aaand, I have an all day track day scheduled this weekend on Sunday.
I made two very nifty cam mounts (no rollbar).
I'll post the videos, too.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Glad to hear it is running great! While 11:1 sounds a bit rich to me, if that is what works with the fuel over their I would heed their experience. That sort of AF ratio will probably sacrifice about 5-10rwhp I would guess at your power level... but safety comes first. Regarding the dyno numbers, what matters the most is the shape of the curve rather than the absolute numbers. And as far as absolute numbers go, if you had it run on a load type (eddy current) dyno, whether a Mustang or Dynojet, your power numbers will read about 10% lower than what you would see on a typical inertial type Dynojet. The numbers I quote and you see are common on the forums here are the inertial type Dynojet (248c).

Bill

[Godless Commie]

Here is what I don't get:

I was right at 190 WHp with a 110mm pulley, stock fuel system maxed to the limit and stock exhaust system. Boost was 7 psi max.

Latest measurement came out to be a rather disappointing 194 Whp with a 130mm Pulley, a hi-flow fuel rail, adjustable FPR, Walbro GSS 342 pump and 2.5" Borla exhaust. 12 psi max boost.

Same fuel throughout.

AFR pretty much the same, about 11:1 in both cases.

All that work, and just 4-5 Hp increase...

Any ideas?

[99mx5]

Engine pulling timing?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Weak coils.

Bill will have to help on boost but isn't 12 a liile low for 130?

[FormerDatsun510Man]

13psi is what I would expect for the boost. If you post a dyno graph, in fact, if you have dyno graphs of the older setup making 190rwhp too, that would help me a lot. The shape of the torque don't lie :biggrin:. Especially if I can compare the torque curves between the 110mm pulley setup and the 130mm pulley setup.

Bill