Confusions with PC-Pro

[ViRuS2k]

i´m a little bit confused with the pc-pro management:

- if i kick the gas pedal hard from a lower gear (1st - 3th) and i accelerate from 1000 - 6000rpm the AFR looks ok
- if i kick the gas pedal hard from a higher gear (4th, 5th) and i accelerate from 4000 - 6000rpm the AFR looks bad (i´m a little bit afraid to wait if i get a better AFR :sweatdrop:)
- the fuel save feature is nice, but i have a bad conscience if i release the gas pedal without hitting the clutch and decelerate from higher rpm very slow to lower rpm (with maximum ARF) - stop lights, bottlenecks...
- the fuel save feature is also very annoying (the car bucking) when i leave the stop light, at bottlenecks or a slow front man :dots:


somebody have the same experience or some solutions?
i think the pc-pro should check the boost from 4000rpm with the included boost sensor or look the management only at the rpm (but if it is so, why i should need the boost sensor?)

My Car:
FFS Coldside 200whp (94, 1.8l) with 2 pc-pro´s (normal injectors + 5th injector)

my zeitronix boost sensor is at the same measure point as the pc-pro.

normally i should have i higher boost with this setup or not?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Two questions.

1) Are you sure the vac/boost tube to the PC-Pro is connected?

2) Do you see a blue light on any/all the cards when you enter boost at any RPM?

[FormerDatsun510Man]

That first datalog scares me. With the TPS around 60%, the boost is about 7.5psi and the AFR is 19:1!!!! Houston we have a problem! The second datalog, similar issue, it starts out a little lean with it being stoich and the TPS at only 30%, but then as soon as you give it a little more throttle it goes way lean again. The third datalog doesn't tell me much except the engine cuts fuel when you let off the throttle, as it should.

Anyway, it seems there is an issue that the PC Pro cards are not adding fuel. This definitely needs to be rectified before you try boosting. First things first, connect a boost gauge with a tee fitting right near the PC Pros. With the standard 105mm pulley, you should see around 6-7psi at around 4000rpm if you give it throttle (about 10-11psi peak at 7000rpm, but PLEASE do not do this until the AFR is 12:1). Also, check and see if the blue light on the PC Pro cards is illuminating when you give it boost. Check the light on both the Main and E-Cool cards. Again, since you are seeing 19:1 AFR DO NOT do this for more than a second! There are three possible problems I can see right now, either:

1) the vacuum line is not giving a good signal to the card(s)... possibly a leak or kink in the hose

2) there is a miswiring on the harness to the PC Pros

3) there is a problem with the program that was flashed onto the PC Pros

I'm leaning towards #1 right now, but we are open to the possibilities.

Bill

[ViRuS2k]

thank you tom & bill, i will try it the next few days :)

[ViRuS2k]

the wireing or the flashing shouldn´t the problem

another log with a lower gear, no positive pressaure, but the AFR comes down :confused:

[FormerDatsun510Man]

The PC Pros aren't programmed to add any fuel below 0.5psi, so the richness you are seeing at negative pressure there has to be from only the stock ECU. When do you see the blue light illuminated on the PC Pro Main and E-Cool cards?

Another test would be to turn up the Y-B on the PC Pro Main and the G-B on the PC Pro E-Cool cards and see how the a/f ratio changes.

Also, does your datalogger get it's vac/boost signal from a different hose than the PC Pros? If it gets it from the same line as the PC Pros, where is it tee'd in?

Settings I am using on my car that work well are:

Main:
G - 4.5
Y - 0
R - 3.5
GB - 4
YB - 2
RB - 4

E-Cool
G - no function
Y - no function
R - no function
GB - 4

Bill

[ViRuS2k]

The Zeitronix gets the boost directly from the intake manifold, the pc-pro become the pressure also from this place via a silicone hose (side by side configuration)

i have test today the blue light on the pc-pro´s:

the ecu pc-pro become a little bit earlier blue, then the other powercard becomes blue, i tested it only on the freeway (with traffic) if i have time, i will try it on the interstate with constant boost.

my settings:
g: 0
y: 0
r: 0
g/b: 4
y/b: 4
r/b: no access

5th injector:
g: 0
y: 0
r: 0
g/b: 4
y/b: no access
r/b: no access

how many fuel do you need with your settings?

http://de.tinypic.com/r/2gw5mjr/5

[ViRuS2k]

video from the power card with boost - work fine:
http://de.tinypic.com/r/1e03lg/5

video (very short) from the zt-2 display (leds are ARF, display shows boost), when i leave the gas pedal it goes rich...
http://de.tinypic.com/r/xz61/5

i try tomorrow your power card setting, but i can´t access to r/b on the main card :(
i hope i don´t need 20 liters per 100 kilometer with these settings ;)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

One more question, what size are your injectors? Stock?

[ViRuS2k]

yes, the injectors are stock, some ideas, why i can´t access the R/B settings?

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Hmmm. I watched both videos and it looks to be running ok in them? In the first video, the blue light illuminates as it should. In the second video, when the boost is negative the a/f appears to be around 15:1 (normal), and then when the boost goes positive the a/f goes rich to around 12:1 (from what I can see at least) and then when you lift the a/f goes back to around 15:1 (normal)?

Bill

[ViRuS2k]

to the video:

i drive normal (negative pressure) 14-15 AFR
i hit the gas pedal for a second (6psi) up to 18 AFR (12 AFR is on the other side ;))
i leave the gas pedal (3.5psi) 14.7 AFR

today i ajusted the y/b (main pc-pro) and the g/b (5th injector) to 8 and tomorrow i will make a log, we will see, when i look at other threads they reach 11-12 AFR with stock injectors?

but why i can´t acces the r/b mode to adjust the high load?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The top gauge that says OIL is the A/F ratio? The other gauge is the boost? If so, the A/F looks good from here.

[ViRuS2k]

no, the "oil" is the oil temperature in celsius :)

you must look at the display (boost) and the outer leds (afr)

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ZR-2/ZR2-outer-LED.anim.210x210.Final.gif

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I don't know what to say. Do you have a video of the AFR at idle? That video goes by so fast and it is awful small print for my eyes.

Looks like it starts at about 19 and just slowly increases to about 14. If that is so, I wouldn't drive the car in boost until it is fixed.

[ViRuS2k]

here is a screen from the idle, perfect at 14.7, resolution:
approx. 14 seconds

looks like at the other screenshots, that the powercard react better at lower gears...

i found also some older posts from people wo have/had same problems like this, changed fuel filters, fuel pumps, fuel pressure regulators...

it should react too slow i think, i maxed the g/b at the 5th injector and the y/b on the main pc-pro... we will see the next logs :sweatdrop:

but why no r/b settings - firmware problem?
i think i should try my mspnp + the 5th injector powercard if i get better results :saddam: - but there are some european emissions barriers :boxing_smiley:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

No r/b because your software is from a point in time when we didn't use r/b.

To me thatr still looks like the cards are adding absolutely no fuel. Do me one more test. Make a short run to 4000 RPM but no higher with the g/b on the main card set to 8 and then with the g/b set to 0.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Ant EGT experts out there? His EGT values look about right for normal operation and way too cool for that much RPM at that lean a condition and that much boost. Somehow I'm thinking that 5400 RPM at 8.5 PSI and 16.5 A/F should be closer to 900C.

Could we be looking at a A/F gauge problem?

[99mx5]

The Zeitronix gets the boost directly from the intake manifold, the pc-pro become the pressure also from this place via a silicone hose (side by side configuration).


Pick the best vacuum hose you have and tee either the PCPros or the Zeitronix to it then eliminate the other vacuum hose. There is no need to pass two vacuum hoses through the firewall. Eliminating one hose will eliminate one point of failure. Hope this helps.

[ViRuS2k]

attached some screenshots with:
main: y/b: 6 (settings_6_x.jpg)
5th: g/b 6

main: y/b: 7 (settings_7_x.jpg)
5th: g/b 7

main: y/b: 7.5 (settings_75_x.jpg)
5th: g/b 7.5

looks better and run´s smoother, but to lean :(

tom, i´ll make you the log the next day´s when we have better weather, after i changes the fuel filter...

99mx5:
there is only 1 vacuum hose througt the firewall - to the pc-pro´s, the boost sensor is mounted directly at the intake...

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Ah... now I understand my misinterpretation on reading your AF gauge. In that case, it does seem to correspond with your datalogs that show it very, very lean when going into boost.

At least adjusting the PC Pro Main and E-Cool seems to have an effect in the right direction (making it richer with higher settings), but it is still way too lean and it seems to me like the cards are not even starting to add fuel soon enough. It is if they don't start until 6 psi, when they should start at 0 psi. If it isn't a vacuum signal issue, could you check the wiring pinout on the PC Pro Main and E-Cool? I hate to have you go to this trouble, but I think at this point it is necessary to check. If this is difficult to do, feel free to PM myself and/or Tom.

Bill

[ViRuS2k]

i´ll check the wiring today, when you look the RPM trend (blue line), there is a amplitude and then it jumps back to the normal RPM reading.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Not sure about the blip on your datalogs for engine rpm. One other thing, when your wideband is showing lean (say over 15:1), what does your stock narrowband O2 read? I should have thought of this before, but it is a good crosscheck for your wideband.

Bill

[ViRuS2k]

thank you for your pm, no idea how i could check the narrowband sensor :svengo:

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Two ways you can check the narrowband O2. The easy way is if you have a scantool you can simply hook it up while you drive and have it display the data. The other, slightly harder way, is to hook up a voltmeter to the blue wire that goes to the O2 sensor in the engine. There is a 4-wire connector there right next to the coil pack on the exhaust side. Hook up a voltmeter to it and while it is idling you should see a voltage dithering around .5v (it will go back and forth between .3 and .7v approximately). When you go into boost, if it is properly going rich the voltage should be somewhere above .5v and steady (preferably somewhere around .92-.95v). If it is going lean you will see the voltage drop below .3v.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

One caveat. The narrowband gauges can read lean if the fuel goes too rich. If it reads lean and you can see black smoke at night in the headlights from the car behind you when you accelerate, you are rich and not lean. They must get overwhelmed or something?

[elektron]

what kind of fuel (octane) do you use?

[ViRuS2k]

the lowest fuel, what we have in austria is 95 octane :)

i have checked the pc-pro wiring today, looks fine

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Be careful with octane ratings. In the U.S. we use the RON+MON/2 method. From what I understand, in Europe and Austalia, the RON method is used. The RON method usually reads about 4 or 5 points higher for the same stuff. By the U.S. rating system, we recommend a minimum of 91 octane and preferably 93 octane. That would mean 95-96 octane by the RON method minimum, or 98 octane RON preferred.

Simple rule of thumb is with any force inducted Miata, you want the highest octane rating gasoline you have regularly available to you.

Bill

[elektron]

Fuel issue was my problem also. 95 octane here in europe is not enough.
In Austria U can try OMV carrera 100 octane or shell Vpower 100.