Aren't you glad you went with FFS?

[socal pat]

Most of us go to Miata.net to keep up with the power forum or supercharger threads. I almost never look at the turbo forum, but have you seen this? http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=437982 Holy begeezies!!! Over a year at BEGI and they aren't returning the car in pristine origional condition? Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy about Tom.

[Steve in VC]

It took Tom less time to design, have tooled, validate, and get CARB on the 1.6. I think he even converted it to E85.

All, in less than a year.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Go easy on Corky. It is a turbo kit after all. It's not like he has been making them for a long time. I think they are still 'experimental'.

[Rdrcr]

Wow!

Mike

[jportwood]

That thread was painful to read. Something is very wrong when the shop that makes the kit can’t install it or get it to run. To add insult to injury they smoke the poor guy’s wire harness. I’ve been personally involved in a bell kit install and to say the least I was disappointed with the fitment.

[socal pat]

..... and it must be nice to be "The Charmed one". The other people who chimed in whos cars have been there for months aren't up in arms. Instead they are defensive. Well, they did lose an employee and one is on vacation...... etc.. Man, if Mike's Place or Tom told a customer "It'll be just a couple extra months" the boards would be lit up with SCAM and INCOMPETANCE.

[Steve in VC]

..... and it must be nice to be "The Charmed one". The other people who chimed in whos cars have been there for months aren't up in arms. Instead they are defensive. Well, they did lose an employee and one is on vacation...... etc.. Man, if Mike's Place or Tom told a customer "It'll be just a couple extra months" the boards would be lit up with SCAM and INCOMPETANCE.?!?, to get that all Tom has to do is mention E-Cool, supercharger, PC-Pro, coldside......

[Rdrcr]

That thread was painful to read. Something is very wrong when the shop that makes the kit can’t install it or get it to run. To add insult to injury they smoke the poor guy’s wire harness. I’ve been personally involved in a bell kit install and to say the least I was disappointed with the fitment.

Agreed. It was a painful read.

What I don't understand is that Begi is continually praised for manufacturing great turbo parts and accessories for Miata's.

Mike

[Rdrcr]

..... and it must be nice to be "The Charmed one". The other people who chimed in whos cars have been there for months aren't up in arms. Instead they are defensive. Well, they did lose an employee and one is on vacation...... etc.. Man, if Mike's Place or Tom told a customer "It'll be just a couple extra months" the boards would be lit up with SCAM and INCOMPETANCE.

Yep, I don't understand this at all. I would be pissed and I would be vocal. I certainly would not be on the defensive.

Mike

[socal pat]

What I really don't get is a guy wanting a turbo setup installed by the manufacturer and being told it will be done in 4 months!!?? If it really does take 4 months to install then either the kit is a real pain or they are painfully slow at installs. If it is a matter of acumulating the parts then why not order the stuff, drive your car, and come back when Corky is ready to do a 2 day install?

Now, if they answer is that these parts need to be custom built for the individual application then how can they sell the same parts over the internet without seeing the car??

[Rdrcr]

^^^^
Agreed.

I don't get it. I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen at FM.

Mike

[FormerDatsun510Man]

What I really don't get is a guy wanting a turbo setup installed by the manufacturer and being told it will be done in 4 months!!?? If it really does take 4 months to install then either the kit is a real pain or they are painfully slow at installs. If it is a matter of acumulating the parts then why not order the stuff, drive your car, and come back when Corky is ready to do a 2 day install?

Now, if they answer is that these parts need to be custom built for the individual application then how can they sell the same parts over the internet without seeing the car??

Couldn't agree more.

Shows to me how Tom did an extraordinary job with FFS. When a kit becomes so easily optioned that every kit sold is custom, it is no longer a kit.

[socal pat]

^^^^
Agreed.

I don't get it. I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen at FM.

Mike

I was just looking at FM's shop postings. They do complete LS conversions in 4 months.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

There is one of FMs LS conversions in Tucson. I saw it up at Mike's Place. It is something to behold. Don't know how it drives but it sure is purdy.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

FM is a top quality place. For things I don't get from FFS, FM is the next choice. Of course I don't need a turbo, but other items I have bought from them I am happy with and they stand behind their products. And they don't overcharge. And they deliver on time.

My dream is to eventually purchase a Westfield from FM. Running an FFS E85 powerplant. To me, that would be the ultimate combination. I plan to get it in lime green to match my old (sniff, sniff) Datsun 510.

[socal pat]

So maybe they aren't sitting around dinking Magaritas over there?

[bogey]

My dream is to eventually purchase a Westfield from FM. Running an FFS E85 powerplant. To me, that would be the ultimate combination. I plan to get it in lime green to match my old (sniff, sniff) Datsun 510.

Ditto on this! I want to build a Westfield with FFS engine also!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

A Westfield with my present engine would be a hoot.

[Rdrcr]

Couldn't agree more.

Shows to me how Tom did an extraordinary job with FFS. When a kit becomes so easily optioned that every kit sold is custom, it is no longer a kit.

Agreed.

Mike

[Rdrcr]

I was just looking at FM's shop postings. They do complete LS conversions in 4 months.

If FM offered a CARB LS conversion, I'd be willing to wait 4 months. :)

Mike

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Cheaper to just buy a used Vette. :)

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Cheaper to just buy a used Vette. :)

Cheaper, but you gotta admit that the cool factor is 10x higher with a V8 powered Miata.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Nope. I don't have to admit it. I think a properly done supercharged four is way cooler in something like a Westfield.

[Rdrcr]

Cheaper to just buy a used Vette. :)

Definitely. But, then it is not an LS Powered Miata. :)

Mike

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Cheaper to just buy a used Vette. :)

Cheaper to just buy a used 'vette... Che vette. :)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

OK. I'm slow but I finally figured out where you guys are headed. You are trying to get me to make 350 WHP in a 1.8L with a Coldside and piggybacks. Clever of you.

[Steve in VC]

OK. I'm slow but I finally figured out where you guys are headed. You are trying to get me to make 350 WHP in a 1.8L with a Coldside and piggybacks. Clever of you.You were going in the right direction, but then stalled with that puny little 300WHP goal. :biggrin:

Back to the OP, Not sure what the OP was thinking, but it piles on the post Pat referenced.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=441409

Corky seems to think Pat is under 25 year old?

Funny, that I'm not seeing anything on MTurbo...

[socal pat]

Hmmm maybe I should revisit the thread. I just wanted to raise the obvious question as to why a 3-4 month install time for so many people. I haven't been back to get involved, but I'll just let Corky think what he wants and everyone else can make up their own minds.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

When you can't respond with facts, take a personal attack. Politicians do it all the time.

I have been permanently banned from eMpTy.net. Even though I have never posted there. They even track my IP. They have become so paranoid that almost nobody in Arizona can post there. Lol. I have to use a ghost router through Michigan to get around it. They haven't caught me yet because I only say nice things about turbos. They are suckers for false praise.

[Toby Weir-Jones]

Hmmm maybe I should revisit the thread. I just wanted to raise the obvious question as to why a 3-4 month install time for so many people. I haven't been back to get involved, but I'll just let Corky think what he wants and everyone else can make up their own minds.

I chimed in, I've dealt with Corky on various issues over the years, and while the split from FM and stories like the one referenced highlight both strengths and weaknesses of BEGI, I do feel it inappropriate to impugn the guy's character. He admitted his role in the problem, didn't try to whitewash it.

No, we don't know why an off the shelf "kit" should take weeks or months for the vendor to install, but the reasons are far more likely to do with business operations (i.e. disorganization) than anything else. Like most engineers, Corky's ability to estimate a completion date for a static piece of work is pretty... inconsistent. Throw in one or two prototype parts, untested solutions, etc, and it's a recipe for a PR disaster if you don't manage it as a custom solution from the outset.

It's one of these situations in which people should attack the specific episode, rather than the man, IMHO. Obviously that will still cost him some business, or at least give people pause for thought, but there are so many moving pieces to get right that the vendors who actually manage it are clearly the exception rather than the rule.

twj

[socal pat]

Agreed. That's why I was very careful NOT to malign Corky personally. I even was careful to separate my remarks from the situation with Hoochy. Since I don't visit the Turbo forums often I was honestly amazed at the time frame many of his customers report, and was only expressing that. In order to put it into perspective I did compare to another company.


If the truth of the situation is uncomfortable for whomever then maybe it is a good learning experience and can benefit the customers down the road.

[Toby Weir-Jones]

If the truth of the situation is uncomfortable for whomever then maybe it is a good learning experience and can benefit the customers down the road.

Yeah I wasn't referring to you, or Hoochy, in my remarks, there were a few others who jumped on the bandwagon, and that was what I thought was in poor taste.

Years ago when I had my turbo, I had constant problems with the manifold nuts getting loose. Of course you can't tighten them arbitrarily because the studs just pull out of the head. Finally, we discovered the problem: the manifold didn't have the relief cuts it was meant to have, and since I was a noob and didn't know it was meant to, I never said anything until after I'd had to get a bunch of helicoils put into my cylinder head in order to repair the damaged mounts for the studs.

Anyway Corky paid to overnight my iron manifold to san antonio from NorCal, decked it, put in the relief cuts, and overnighted it back to the shop where the car was disassembled. I technically bought the kit from FM but obviously some parts came from BEGI, and rather than get into a discussion about whether the manifold should have been quality-checked by FM before shipping to me, he just stepped up and fixed it.

The measure of a man is how he deals with adversity, and so based on the above I've always had a soft spot for Corky. I still didn't end up buying a supercharger from him (obviously) but had I done so, I don't doubt it would have been sorted out in the end.

twj

[Steve in VC]

I chimed in, I've dealt with Corky on various issues over the years, and while the split from FM and stories like the one referenced highlight both strengths and weaknesses of BEGI, I do feel it inappropriate to impugn the guy's character. He admitted his role in the problem, didn't try to whitewash it.

No, we don't know why an off the shelf "kit" should take weeks or months for the vendor to install, but the reasons are far more likely to do with business operations (i.e. disorganization) than anything else. Like most engineers, Corky's ability to estimate a completion date for a static piece of work is pretty... inconsistent. Throw in one or two prototype parts, untested solutions, etc, and it's a recipe for a PR disaster if you don't manage it as a custom solution from the outset.

It's one of these situations in which people should attack the specific episode, rather than the man, IMHO. Obviously that will still cost him some business, or at least give people pause for thought, but there are so many moving pieces to get right that the vendors who actually manage it are clearly the exception rather than the rule.

twjI think there are two elements the FFS crowd is responding to.

The supercharger / turbo war, that attacks superchargers, and Tom's system more than the others by a significant margin.

Corky has talked a lot of crap about how his cold side will be the best in the planet, then - nothing. Rumors of a blown engine, but nothing public. But then, neither was the wiring harness fire until Hoochy disclosed it.

Tom has had his system on engines that have blown, and they have been thouroughly discussed in MNet, with the (turbo) peanut galley trashing everything they can think of, valid or not. To has participated in the trouble shooting, and has even asked us getting angry with the peanut gallery to calm down. I have yet to see an FFS system be the cause of failure.

Tom is willing to provide support to those of us that want to "upgrade" his kit, but he won't sell anything he hasn't tested to death.


I think this is a situation where Corky has been found not to be the guru appears (after all, he wrote the book on SC & Turbo's - and they are good books).

Corky seems to jump at any chance to push the envelope. I expect he is confident of his capabilities. This is one of the few customers that have gone public on the results. Corky participated in Hoochy's thread only to attack others (not their comments).

[Toby Weir-Jones]

I think this is a situation where Corky has been found not to be the guru appears (after all, he wrote the book on SC & Turbo's - and they are good books).

I think that's the nut of it. The engineering aspects of compressors and thermal efficiency and all the rest of it are not all that must be mastered in order for an application to work on a given car. And while I think Corky's understanding of those aspects is extensive, I think there's a big gap between that and all the subsystems of a modern car which must be kept in harmony in order for the application to work. You need to have a pretty solid understanding of PCM programming, all the EE knowledge behind how the various sensors and control loops behave, and obviously some awareness of how your attempts to modify these parameters will affect the rest of the car.

Clearly the anti-FFS crowd doesn't understand basic physics or the intercooler arguments would go away, but aside from that, the objection to the PC Pro is founded on the notion that its simplicity must indicate some feeble capability. Yet I would wager that few could really explain why more variables and more parameters to interact with one another is objectively better when left in the hands of amateurs.

Corky seems to move between different points on the spectrum. On the one hand, he chose the piggyback option via Xede, but on the other, BEGI seems to be trying to offer up a lot more adjustability via that route, and lo and behold the results aren't always predictable or as expected.

The only additional signal a turbo kit could use would be a PWM output to control a solenoid attached to a wastegate, though that's not strictly required if you simply use a calibrated spring. I'd be interested to know whether a PC Pro setup could be configured to produce such a signal, perhaps allowing a single parameter to be adjusted via the keypad, which would presumably be indexed against the mechanical spring seat pressure of the given wastegate.

If such a setup could be produced, imagine the entertainment to be had from using a 'no electronics' (and no intercooler) 8-12psi turbo kit from FM or BEGI, coupling it with Tom's PC Pros, and modifying the stock intake manifold to take the E-Cool injectors.

twj

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Turbos and Hotsides will always need intercoolers.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

That thread sounds like a very unfortunate experience. Problems are to be expected in the automotive modification world, try as we all might to make it perfect every time. The difference is in how it is handled. To me it points out how well Tom has handled FFS and made it look easy.

I have no doubt that Corky has a huge wealth of valuable technical knowledge and experience. Not just because of his books I've read, but also in what he has accomplished in the past racing (goes back to Datsun roadsters) and custom systems. Very intricate stuff. I think the problem is he needs some better customer service/relationships. Perhaps hire someone that concentrates on just that while he does the fun stuff :).

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Sadly, a bad situation got worse.

In his case, 3-4 month install on a turbo is not his problem. It took a year and then still didn't run right. Then they put it back to stock and .......

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.php?p=5475938&postcount=32

[bogey]

I can't imagine allowing this debacle to go on for so long, and then to add the insult of breakdown on top of it!

This is so painful...

[jportwood]

I’m confused about the part we shouldn’t blame Corky. Please tell me who else is at fault if not the guy with his name on the building. This guy laid 6200 clams on the table and got a car back with a smoked wire harness not to mention his car set out so long it ruined his interior but we’ll just call it a comedy of errors and have a nice day.

[Toby Weir-Jones]

I don't think anyone's saying you shouldn't blame Corky, just that his intentions -- however poorly executed-upon -- were probably not ill-conceived at the outset.

The train wreck is devastating, without a doubt.

twj

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Never met Corky but I think I know him well enough to say he did not do this on purpose with malice aforethought by any means. He just got in over his head.

[jportwood]

I feel so bad for that dude. He didn’t even make it home due to his car blowing a head gasket because bell left a hose that rubbed through and caused a coolant leak. That same thing happened to another dude’s engine that bell worked on.

[Steve in VC]

Even though this was an extreme situation, things like this happen. The difference is how the company reacts.

I think all us that had an issue with our car after the FFS kit have been more than happy with how Tom handles it.

I hope Corky makes it right for Hoochy.

In the mean time, Corky's silence, either by posting directly, or from Hoochy saying Corky has contacted him, is allowing negativity to build.

[socal pat]

I feel so bad for that dude. He didn’t even make it home due to his car blowing a head gasket because bell left a hose that rubbed through and caused a coolant leak. That same thing happened to another dude’s engine that bell worked on.

If you look back at his origional thread Hoochy mentions that BEGI will return the car after they re-install the dash. He also states that there was something that made it impossible to stop driving before the damage was done. Betcha that temp gauge was never hooked up right so he just merrily kept driving until ....... well you know.

[imarcr2]

Preface:

I own a car with a BEGI kit on it that has been a reliable performer.

I installed a BEGI kit for a friend several years ago. He paid to have a lot of custom touches done. Special coatings on the turbo, cat, downpipe. A bunch of internal turbo porting, etc. Special downpipe. All the pieces were nice, but they didn't work well together. Wrong IC piping because he was using a different IC than the kit would normally come with, etc.

Corky was always helpful to resolve problems, but the car was in my garage for most of the summer.

I am a believer in how Tom and the folks at FM run their business. Too many options leads to all sorts of problems....Things don't fit, wrong parts sent to a customer("how is this pipe possibly going to fit....6 hours later, it's not the right one of course!'), and instructions that don't jive with what has been sent to you. Tom has a base and upgraded kit....that is it, makes life simpler for customer and vendor.

I have been in the S#*t-storm vortex when nothing seems to go right, so I do have sympathy. Hopefully, it gets sorted out.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

I don't feel so bad for taking up to 2 weeks on a couple installs...

[jportwood]

I helped a buddy of mine install a bell turbo kit. I was saddened by the fitment issues we ran into not to mention the wrong parts that were shipped.

[socal pat]

Well guys, post #68 says it all I guess..... http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=441409&page=3

[bogey]

I find this saga particularly disturbing. I perform a lot of work on Miatas in the Cincinnati area and am frequently entrusted with the cars for several days.

I do not have a commercial garage; I do the work in my home garage. It is a 2 car garage that usually houses 3 Miata - my sons 90, my wifes 97, and my 96.

One of my primary concerns is to always return the car in better condition that I received it. If I am keeping a car overnight, the serviced car almost always is kept inside and one of my Miata takes a place in the driveway. The purpose of this is to protect the car form weather and any other risks of keeping the car outside.

Also, before returning any car, I perform any simple fixes I can do that I would do on my own cars (small quick items such as tighten loose panels, lubricate hood hinges, etc). I do not charge for these adjustments. I also clean up after myself, wiping down surfaces, cleaning up any debris left behind.

I would greatly pain me if I had to return a car that was damaged or neglected by me. One time a car left my garage and was later found to have loose lug nuts on a rear wheel. (This was a case where the cars owner and his friend was "helping" and unfortunately I overlooked double checking everything - it won't happen again). That experience really bothered me greatly.

Hoochy's experience is a real nightmare. I am sure that a series of unfortunate events led to many of the mishaps, but overall it sounds like a lack of caring on the part of Corky's shop. Corky should have stepped up and made this situation right at his expense, either by properly repairing this car or purchasing it.

I can't imaging Tom ever leaving someone hanging like this.

[Steve in VC]

Even though this was an extreme situation, things like this happen. The difference is how the company reacts.

I think all us that had an issue with our car after the FFS kit have been more than happy with how Tom handles it.

I hope Corky makes it right for Hoochy.

In the mean time, Corky's silence, either by posting directly, or from Hoochy saying Corky has contacted him, is allowing negativity to build.IMHO, Corky may have been better off remaining silent.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

+1

Sometimes it is better to let it go unanswered.

From the pictures, I would believe HCM implicitly.

IMHO, Corky may have been better off remaining silent.

[ScottM]

Wow, that thread is literally painful to read. I used to live in Austin and have been down to Corky's shop although he wasn't in when I was there. Organization didn't appear to be the strong point of the company but Corky's always had the reputation of being a standup guy. Very sad for all involved.

[jportwood]

What would concern me is Corky had to ask this guy for money just to make payroll. If your cutting it that close not being able to make your own stuff work in a years time is just one of his problems.

[jportwood]

Does this mean the word “corkscrew” has two meanings now.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Jim, either way you say it, it has the same meaning. :)

[jportwood]

You do have a way with the words Sir.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

This whole thing reminds me of BRP and their demise. Brant got behind and started using the money from today's order to pay for yestredays order. Then it got to needing today and tomorrows orders to pay for yesterdays order. Pretty soon the orders didn't come in fast enough to pay for the orders on hand and down it went.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

I think this is a smarter business move for Corky:

http://corkybellsseafood.com/

He could have all the frozen margaritas he wants!

[stratosteve]

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

This whole thing reminds me of BRP and their demise. Brant got behind and started using the money from today's order to pay for yestredays order. Then it got to needing today and tomorrows orders to pay for yesterdays order. Pretty soon the orders didn't come in fast enough to pay for the orders on hand and down it went.

Unfortunately for me, I got caught in the middle of that whole thing. Makes it real hard to trust anyone after that.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It was a $$20,000.00 education for me as well. That was just the Coldside part.

I must have spent $10,000.00 trying to get 201 WHP out of my 225 whp Hotside too. Which is what convinced me to make the Coldside.

[jportwood]

Hey Bill I’ve been to that restaurant. It takes to long to get your food and when you finally do the orders wrong.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

You serious? hahaha :biggrin:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Hahahahahahaha

[Steve in VC]

Hey Bill I’ve been to that restaurant. It takes to long to get your food and when you finally do the orders wrong.Did they reimburse you for the shrimp that landed you in the hospital?

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Probably not. How can a restaurant be held liable for a customer with a weak stomach? The customer should have checked their stomach for warning signs before the impending doom occured. The restaurant will be glad to bring the customer to the hospital... at the customer's expense.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Based on the deafening silence and the HCM thread, I'm guessing the coldside project went dead after blowing up the prototype engine in March? Not even a "coming soon" comment.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=410452

[socal pat]

On a related note...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo

[jportwood]

Sounds like their blower project had some bad "MOJO"

[Steve in VC]

Sounds like their blower project had some bad "MOJO"But, But, But - it had a W/A intercooler. Everyone know intercooler are bestest.

[socal pat]

And Joe Perez posted that Tom's intake manifold design was just "advertizing hype", so surely that wasn't the issue.