PC Pro

[cmetzner]

Tom -

Any word on when the PC Pro will be available?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Not yet. I guess I could get some as soon as I blessed it. Just not ready to do that yet.

[cmetzner]

Tom -

I suppose that the PC Pro in the form in which it arrives to you will not be ideal for my situation. Your kit has a BTB and mine has the stock TB. So, I will have to adjust mine. Also, I have a 115 pulley.

Will I have to buy mine directly from PC Pro?

Or, can I only get a working copy from you and also buy your BTB so that the combination works together?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Chuck. The way I have the PC-Pro setup, it will compensate for BTB vs. stock or 100mm vs, 120mm pulley. It controls the fuel based on "load". It is a formula that considers boost and RPM and does the math to correct for high boost at 2000 RPM and/or low boost at 6000 RPM (for example). They have really done their homework.

[cmetzner]

Well, damn!! When will it be ready?

Sounds like I should wait to dyno the car until after the Pro is installed.

[cmetzner]

Tom -

This probably belongs in a separate thread but -

I finally loaded my SS computer with the map you provided to chuckerants. I used the A map that you said was your autocross map.

Great results, the car has a quicker response off the line and more even acceleration. Here are the differences between his car and mine. He has the BTB; I have stock; I have a 115mm pulley; he has 110 (I think); he has a 550cc injector; mine is 330cc.

I also have the restrictive 99-00 Cal two-cat exhaust; I do not know what his car has. I also have water injection.

Anyway, the car runs noticeably smoother. The real test will be on Thurs at Willow Springs.

[chuckerants]

Chuck, I now have a Aquamist WI running off the SS. I also am running a 115mm and I have no cats. :D

Did I mention how strong my car feels? I can't wait for the new outlet manifold.

[cmetzner]

Chuck -

So you can map your WI through the SS? Just splice the fuel injector wires on the SS to the high speed valve on the WI - very cool.

[chuckerants]

Chuck -

So you can map your WI through the SS? Just splice the fuel injector wires on the SS to the high speed valve on the WI - very cool.

Yup, that's exactly right. I have the WI turning on at 4 PSI. So far, so good. But the real test will be next year when the weather gets hot again.

[cmetzner]

I have my 2d WI turning on at 3-4psi - seems to work very well for me. Drove the car hard on the way home tonight with the new fuel map. Only 2* of additional timing retard and no ping. Very smooth transition into boost.

Wouldn't you know it, now that it is running so well, I am told that I have a bent crank. Will do a couple more inspections and then trade the car.

[chuckerants]

Why not just drive the car til you kill the motor than swap in a used motor?

[cmetzner]

Yes, that is another option and may happen if they are correct and the motor lets go on the track. My thought was to save the head. But the labor to swap the head is more than the upcharge to get a long block instead of a shortblock.

No cats Chuck! Are you blowing all that foul air to California? Are you the reason there are no smoking in public laws in some of our cities?

[chuckerants]

Yes, that is another option and may happen if they are correct and the motor lets go on the track. My thought was to save the head. But the labor to swap the head is more than the upcharge to get a long block instead of a shortblock.

No cats Chuck! Are you blowing all that foul air to California? Are you the reason there are no smoking in public laws in some of our cities?

The marine layer blows TO Arizona. Which is why I'm freezing my ass off when it's below 80F here. lol

And as if Santa Monica ever needed anyones help to pass stupid ass laws.

FWIW, we have TWO initiatives on smoking - I voted no on both. :D

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

That's OK. Kathleen and I are voting yes on both. :)

[Kyp J]

Re ass freezing: Before I moved to south Texas, 70* +/- 2* was where I was comfortable. After a couple of months of over 100 and high humidity, 70* seems cold. I didn't know it was going to work that way. It is still going to seem like a long cold winter. Damn! :confused:

[cmetzner]

To get back on track, is the PC Pro available yet?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Not yet. Should be here sometime next week.

[cmetzner]

Tom -

Do I have this correct?

The PC Pro assumes that the car has the BTB kit. So, for those of us that have the stock throttle body, I will have to reduce fuel, right? Less air / less fuel. So, I will have to tweak the fuel from the SS controller to get the fuel to where it needs to be.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Chuck,

The PC-Pro looks at duty cycle of the injectors, RPM and boost. Does some higher math. Weights those three items based on what I have dialed in for a Miata and adds fuel accordingly. That makes it pretty independent of pulley ratios, big vs. stock TB, Hotside vs. Coldside, etc. The thing that was the hardest to dial in was the "Miata Factor" as I call it. Effectively, I needed to find the proper 'weighting' of those factors. I think I am clsoe on the 99. I thought I was clsoe on the 05 but found the error of my ways at the lab. :( When I finish re-tuning the 99, I will simply move the maps to the 05 to confirm. They are night and day different cars so that shold confirm/deny whether my settings will transfer or not.

I will be selective as to the first few that I ship so I can confirm th settings on more cars before I offer them for sale.

[Kyp J]

Volunteer here!! Hello, Hello (arm up and waving) 2001 coldside with FFS tensioner bracket.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Volunteer here!! Hello, Hello (arm up and waving) 2001 coldside with FFS tensioner bracket.

I just got an official email that said you were making too much noise over here and waving your arms too much. I called your wife and told her to cut your coffee. ;)

[cmetzner]

I am quietly and politely volunteering.

[Banshee]

Tom,

Will I need a different program if I'm not running E-Cool or will the PC-Pro self adjust?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It will pretty much adjust up to about 190-200WHP. After that, you will need fuel from someplace.

[Banshee]

Tom,

How do I sign up? A new dyno shop just opened 2 miles from my house. I'll definetly do some dyno runs to confirm the changes.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I should add that you need to confirm A/F to make sure you are not lean if you don't have E-Cool.

[Banshee]

I should add that you need to confirm A/F to make sure you are not lean if you don't have E-Cool.

Not a problem. Planning on dynoing it right away, I also have a A/F meter with a digital numeric display.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

All right. Then I'll add you to the list. :-) Lean and mean is good for the human body but not good for the engine.

[MikeyLikesIt]

Tom, if you're looking for some hotside testing, let me know.

Adding the e-cool shortly.

Thanks

Mike

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Chuck is our volunteer hotside PC-Pro tester. What I need is someone who wants a new hotside kit on their car. :) I want to get the new kit on a car and work out any kinks.

[Banshee]

So Tom, is the PC-pro here yet?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, I got word that they shipped to Moss and they should have them today ot Monday and then turn them around to me. I should have them by the end of next week.

[Banshee]

Tom,

How is the Pc-pro controlling boost transition and lean tip in now? You're no longer using the o2 clamp right?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I use one of the anaolg circuits (used to be used for the O2) and feed the TPS signal straight through unless there is boost. Then I ramp it quickly to WOT voltage and hold it there. That appears to do the trick.

[Banshee]

I use one of the anaolg circuits (used to be used for the O2) and feed the TPS signal straight through unless there is boost. Then I ramp it quickly to WOT voltage and hold it there. That appears to do the trick.


Is that something we're going to have to wire up separetly from the pc-pro?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Nope. Pre-wired in the harness. Just like the VTCS Relay fix. It will be pre-wired as well. Plug in the harness and all is well. The VTCS guys will just have to open the hood and remove anything that has to do with the VTCS and plug the VTCS vacuum line at the VDB. I have not had even a flicker of a VTCS code since the relay install.

[Kyp J]

For those of us (me) who are technically challenged, can you explain the O2 clamp function and what you said about forcing TPS to WOT?

Let me guess first. At WOT the PCM goes open loop and defaults the injector pulse width to max so it doesn't fight the piggy back's attempts at injector control? I never knew what it was for and only now started thinking about it.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

You were close.

At WOT, the PCM (ECU) goes open loop and goes to a set of lookup tables and sets the fuek accordingly. At that point, it ignores the MAF signal and the O2 signal so it stops trying to correct the long term and short term fuel memory. When you do an O2 clamp, it tells the PCM/ECU that the A/F is stoich (or close to stoich) but you never get the number perfect so long term and short term fuel are effected. The other method (cheap) is to make the PCM/ECU think the incoming air is very cold (some people make it think it is -40 F and others use -40 C. That's a math joke. :)). The problem there is that it goes very rich and somewhat ignores RPM all together. Then you can have the problem of chugging as you transition from vacuum to boost.

[Kyp J]

I was afraid the explanation was beyond my limitations. The only thing about short and long term memory I know about is mine is getting shorter along with ....never mind.

I just used a -40 F/C joke the other day.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

;)

Kind of like the racetrack. There is a 1 mile oval racetrack. To qualify, you have to averager 120MPH for 2 laps. On the first lap, you have engine trouble and average 60 MPH. How fast do you have to go on the second lap to average 120?

Of course the -40 F/C is easier. Which is colder?

[pumpkin]

Minus 40 is one place it don't matter F or C.
JD

[Banshee]

Tom,

For those of us not lucky (Too cheap to buy the harness), how do we wire in the the boost transition device?

You mentioned earlier that it was just 12 wires, does that include this little device?

How does your 05 run without it?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yep. It is included in the 12 wires. Like the injector wires, you cut one more wire and wire two of the OC-Pro wires to the two ends of the wire that was cut.

[Banshee]

So are they here yet?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Moss got the and performed their magic. They are in packaging now and will ship to me Monday. I should have them Wednesday. I should start shipping a week from Monday.

[cmetzner]

Not that it is any of our business, but, what kind of magic does Moss do? Did they help with the maps? Did they build the device? Did they pay for the testing? I think not.

This Moss seems to be everywhere.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

They put their label on it. ;)

Seriously, all of my tuning is paid by me. However, there would be NO PC-Pro without Moss.

[Swingwing]

Hi Tom,
Some more PC Pro questions for a 99 Miata--you said earlier that hot/cold side, pulley size, etc., don't matter; the Pro self-adjusts to get the fuel pretty close. How close have your "base settings" come out? I guess an A/F meter is still in my future to fine tune settings? Are you selling Pros to the general public yet or still taking care of the FFS customers first?
Lucien

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Lucien,

So far it has been plug in and drive with one exception. I think his was flashed with the 99 program and he has a 01-05 car. My error but we are correcting that by re-flashing the card tomorrow. The 94-00 ECU controls the injectors differently from the 01-05 ECU and the controller needs to know that and I set the software switch incorrectly on his. Anyhow, that is why I want to try a couple hotsides. As you know, the hotside is less efficient than the coldside. Typically, the hotside 110/65 is about the same as the coldside 105/65 in WHP. That is typically due to the losses in the outlet manifold of the hotside. That is why Moss has designed a new cast putlet manifold for theirs. With that said, I do expect there will possible be a change needed to the program for the hotside vs. coldside but it will be a tweak to correct for the boost vs. flow difference. Now, does that mean that once it is setup for normal pulleys (105-115 range) and you drop a 150mm pulley on the car it will work? I doubt it will as other pertinent parts will have also changed (injectors, for example) and it will need to be re-set to compensate. I have a couple volunteers now so we should know shortly.

They are in stock and for sale to everybody now. If I run out of the first batch, I can get more rapidly.:yes:

You might want to wait for feedback from the couple volunteers. Chuck's works great but not perfect. He is not running the latest tuning profile. It's hell when a guy has to go to work and can't spend time playing with his car whenever he wants. :(

[cmetzner]

Lucien -

I have a 99 stock Calif exhaust car with 115mm pulley; stock throttle body. I just installed the PC Pro last night. The car is very smooth. Tom had it preset and I did nothing to it.

I was using the ELF (one that worked) with an o2 clamp. That ran OK but had some light stumble on transition.

Now, the car runs great.

[cmetzner]

Tom -

How much room is left in the stock injectors for more fuel?

I think that I am running lean above 6000rpm. I am not sure as I have no gauge but I thought that I heard pinging above that level.

I can increase the fuel through the SS extra injector or through the PC and the stock injectors. But, how much more fuel (in millisec or %) can be added through the stock injectors?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Chuck,

If you are at or below 200WHP, you could probably do it all with the stock injectors if you had to. Add fuel with the RED zone. It will only add fuel from 5000-7500 RPM. Otherwise, adding fuel in that range on the SS also gets cooling up there. It's just easier on the PC-Pro. ;)

[cmetzner]

I ask, Tom, because I get some ping with the PC Pro. With the car in third or fourth at 3000rpm and then adding medium to heavy acceleration, I get ping. Never got that with the ELF and o2 clamp.

I hooked up the second additonal injector. Then added fuel in the top two zones on the PC Pro. I moved the lights up to the 7 or 8 mark - can't remember.

The only thing that helped was to turn back the timing on the SS so that it takes out an additional 4* of timing under boost.

In a couple of weeks I will be able to get the car over to gearheads garage to have Steve dyno tune the set up.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

You should probably turn the YEL/BLUE all the way up and the RED/BLUE all the way up as well as the YEL and RED zones.