FFS Hotside re-programmed

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Chuck brought his FFS hotside back over Monday morning. He had been trying to eliminate ping with the big pulley and 91 octane. He added WI to his kit and had it all gone. I asked him to bring it back so I could re-wire and re-program to what I did with the 05. I did that and we took it for a ride. No ping. Then I asked him to disconnect the WI and, somewhat reluctantly, he did. I think he was pretty surprised to hear no ping. :) I think the new control method works pretty well. :)

That really helped make my decision to drop the 05 off for CARB. That, and the fact that they had a window of opportunity to take it in.

[Serpico]

Does Chuck still have the stock radiator? What were the ambient temps?

And can you go into a little more detail on the "changes" that where made?

With that 115mm pulley and BTB , does that mean Chuck is making about 11-12psi and with no intercooler????

I'm seriously thinking about pulling my A/A intercooler and installing a massive radiator instead...

Tom, if you need a Beta tester for your hotside kit on an '01, count me in.
Since I already have the supercharger/e-cool, all I would need is the PC Pro , BTB & crossover pipe....right??? :)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Chuck has either the Hoyo 37 or the PWR. I forget which. Heck, I have a hard time remembering what I have in MY car(s). :)

The PC-Pro is "LOAD" based. It looks at injector duty cycle and RPM and calculates load so it can tell the difference between 2000-7000RPM in 2nd gear vs. 2000-7000 in 5th gear, for example. I have adjusted the slope of the balance to make the load response more limnear. What's really neat is that I dropped the exact same program from the 05, VVT, 10:1 engine with 105/65 coldside into his hotside 115/65 99 and it worked perfectly. Guess I am close on the program.

I don't remember the boost (Chuck, step in anytime :)) but it was 202 at the wjheels with the 110mm pulley so I would guess close to 210WHP now.

I am almost copnvinced that the massive radiator is as important as the IC. We have monitored a lot of Miatas on the dyno lately and, as the water temp crosses ~210F, ping starts. It doesn't seem to matter what the intake air temp is. That is why I sold the PWR and bought the 55mm Koyo to test. All in the name of science, doncha know. ;) Chuck added W/A IC to his as it is now and had no effect on ping whatsoever. I know it dropped the intake temps. Problem is, when the engine heats up, it wants to ping. When on the dyno we see the temp rise as the engine accelerates and cross 210F, ping starts. If the water is gaining heat that fast, it must be a LOT hotter in the steel as the btus just don't transfer that fast from the cylinder wall through the block into the water. I'll know more later today when I get the PC-Pros into the 99.

I would love to do a 'makeover' on yours and transform it into a ping free 200WHP+ FFS hotside. When can you come and visit? I think you are correct on parts. You did leave out the Koyo 55mm radiator though. :)

[chuckerants]

Does Chuck still have the stock radiator? What were the ambient temps?

And can you go into a little more detail on the "changes" that where made?

With that 115mm pulley and BTB , does that mean Chuck is making about 11-12psi and with no intercooler????

I'm seriously thinking about pulling my A/A intercooler and installing a massive radiator instead...

Tom, if you need a Beta tester for your hotside kit on an '01, count me in.
Since I already have the supercharger/e-cool, all I would need is the PC Pro , BTB & crossover pipe....right??? :)



IIRC, the temps were around 80~85F.

I'm making around 10PSI right now. Tom agrees that I should be making around 12PSI if I had a CS, but...

I have a PWR 37mm radiator with the parellel fan mod.

And no we can't go into the changes that were made. Tom has to some secrets. :)

[chuckerants]

FWIW, Jack, the M.Net Mod who's selling his BRP Hotside is making 9 PSI and 200 HP with a 126mm pulley. He has a W/A IC, SS timing and fuel controller, and whatever else BRP could sell him.

I wonder how I could run a 110mm pulley in 112F day and get as much HP as he is using a 126mm pulley in Nova Scotia where it's MUCH cooler (it's in the 40F's right now). Dumb luck maybe? Hmm. :D

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Actually, the 115mm on a coldside would be ~13-14PSI. I think some of the hotside loss is in the design of the machined SC outlet manifold. Hopefully the new cast one Moss designed/scrapped/re-designed will cure some of that. We'll know as soon as we see the boost. If it goes up, the new design flows better.

[Serpico]

I'd love to come for a visit Tom, but it's a long long haul from Massachusetts and my car is definitely not a cross country cruiser.....

Chuck, did you install a second injector for your water injection or did you simply use the E-Cool's injector??? Is that possible or does water require a different type of nozzle?

[chuckerants]

I'd love to come for a visit Tom, but it's a long long haul from Massachusetts and my car is definitely not a cross country cruiser.....

Chuck, did you install a second injector for your water injection or did you simply use the E-Cool's injector??? Is that possible or does water require a different type of nozzle?

If Tom can drive to Ohio from Arizona with his JIC equipped 99, ...

I used parts from an Aquamist system and tapped a hose 90 degrees from the 5th injector.

I''l have some pics soon.

[f11]

First read in quite a while... FFS Hotside?!? I'm shocked, just shocked!! :) I didn't realize Tom had relented and started mfg'g hotside models as well. For a minute there, I wasn't sure whose forum I was on.

Rod

[Banshee]

Moss is developing the kit, and Tom is putting his personalize touches on it like a BTB and E-Cool.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

One does what one can to maintain market share. :)

[cmetzner]

FWIW, Jack, the M.Net Mod who's selling his BRP Hotside is making 9 PSI and 200 HP with a 126mm pulley. He has a W/A IC, SS timing and fuel controller, and whatever else BRP could sell him.

I wonder how I could run a 110mm pulley in 112F day and get as much HP as he is using a 126mm pulley in Nova Scotia where it's MUCH cooler (it's in the 40F's right now). Dumb luck maybe? Hmm. :D

Jack retards timing by way of the SS controller. I have seen the map and it is fairly standard for the set up from BR. The timing map is based on psi and rpm and most of us max out at 8 - 10 degrees of timing pulled.

I set the knob on my SS controller at 12 o'clock meaning at most I pull 4-5* of timing from whatever the stock ECU timing is. I am pretty sure Jack does the same. I read somewhere that every degree of timing = 4hp.

Tom/Chuck -

I see that Chuck is using an FFS fuel rail. I suppose that it is dual feed. Does that have an affect on suppressing ping.

Chuck, to cool the intake charge, the water should be injected as far up the intake stream as possible. The FM example assumes that the water is injected at the outlet manifold of the sc. Where you have it should suppress some pre-ignition but does not have time to do much cooling according to Aquamist and Flyin Miata.

They told me to inject at the outlet and choose a nozzle that results in about 10 - 15% water/fuel mix.

Tom - Moss is working on a new outlet manifold? I always thought that the BR version was cludgy.

[chuckerants]

Chuck, the last time I was in SoCal running the 115mm pulley, the weather was in the low 80's and my car felt soooo good and I had/have no timing retard at all. I really think that you are being too conservative with your timing retard, but Jack is being REALLY conservative as his weather is a lot cooler than either yours and mine.

I understand that your car gets driven by other people so the timing retard is probably wise, but Jack?

So what's the point of running such a big pulley if you're pulling all that timing? Why not just run a smaller pulley and NOT pull timing and get the same HP without all the heat?

As for the WI nozzle placement, can you show me the Aquamist link where they recommend the nozzle placement?

TIA

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I wonder if Jack's is one of those neat 'ported' ones? That would answer some of the questions.

[chuckerants]

I wonder if Jack's is one of those neat 'ported' ones? That would answer some of the questions.

We'll never know as he stopped answering my PMs right after I asked him why he was only making 200HP using a 126mm pulley. LOL

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Chuck is running the fuel rail because I had one that was not anodized or engraved that was headed for the scrap heap and he talked me out of it to play with. :) I added one to my 99 last week for a test but haven't had time to see if it made much of a difference. I am going to pull the Electronic Fuel Pressure gauge out of mothballs and hook it up to see if the pressure has any problems on both the 99 (FFS Fuel Rail) and the 05 (Stock Fuel Rail). More to follow.

I only single end fed the FFS rail on the 99 as I don't think duel feeding is necessary. We will see. I will monitor pressure at the opposite end of the rail from the feed.

[chuckerants]

I'm so persuasive that I "talked" him out if that fuel rail. Next up, I "talk" him out of the 120mm pulley. LOL

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Dream on. That 120 is MINE.

[Dr Evol]

Don't look here either Chuck! :) :) :) :)

[cmetzner]

Chuck -

Aquamist does not have a picture of the injection point. I did not mark the site where I saw this several years ago.

I had several emails with Richard Lamb of Aquamist and a few people on his forum that described where to inject. I have not been on that board in a while - don't know if it is still active.

You can also get alot of info on the Turbo Buick site. Those guys are up to 24psi and do alot of WI. They use an intercooler and then inject water directly into the intake manifold.

I was told by several people not to inject water next to the extra fuel injectors. Something about the fuel would cool the water and the water mist would turn to drops and not be as effective. All very mystical to me.