Hot Side vs Cold Side

[Andymon]

I found this site just days before the old board went down, and with it I'm guessing many of the posts.
I've seen several references to the benefits of having a coldside SC, but nothing mentioned on the benefits of a hotside. Could somebody post the +/- of each in one spot for me?
Thanks,
--------Andymon
Following the CARB posts intently....

[chuckerants]

Coldside:

1. OEM-like driveability (really)

2. No Idle issues

3. No issues with header compatibility

Hotside:

1. Potential for much more power than a CS.

[Andymon]

I understand the benefits to coldside, but I don't get what makes the hotside more able to produce more power. Is there no way to intercool a coldside?

--------Andymon

[Bo0osted]

Nope... no way to intercool... yet

[Wayne-n-Fla]

I understand the benefits to coldside, but I don't get what makes the hotside more able to produce more power. Is there no way to intercool a coldside?

--------Andymon
You've answered you own question, in that the H/S can be innercooled and the C/S can't echonomically that is, OR is, at the present time.

[mashfoot]

The way I understand it, the reduced throttled volume of the cs is what gives it the superior throttle response and fewer idle issues. There's no where for an intercooler to go as it's mounted directly on the intake. About all that is available is using an additional injector (e-cool) to cool the charge with fuel, water, alcohol, etc. I'd think that as boost increases, this type of IC would reach limitations. Heavily boosted applications would require a traditional air or water intercooler. Non intercooled hs applications may not make as much power as a cs, but because it uses the stock intake manifold, are less expensive to produce. And of course, the hs does have a nice "balanced" look to it :rolleyes:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Andy,

They have pretty much said it all. The coldside would lose it's flavor if taken much beyond 220WHP anyhow. It is "intercooled" with the 5th injector (E-Cool) and that gets it nicely above 200WHP. I have dropped plans to add an IC to the coldside and will have the hotside as soon as the cast outlet manifold is finished. I think the coldside still gets near the limits of safe daily driver on a stock engine. If you want to go beyond 220WHP, you should consider putting upgraded internals into the engine.

PS. We were able to save all of the posts when we converted the forum software. None were lost. :)

[Andymon]

Yep, I changed my options on the board and now I see all the older posts.

I'm thinking cs is still the way I'm gonna go. You could always change your mind about an intercooler *someday*, and the next step after a cs for me would likely be to have done (or do myself :shock: ) a full 2.0 build with low compression and the lightest internals I can find. I want to squeeze as much zinginess as possible out of my '01, similar to what I did with my naturally aspirated '91. And then, of course, there are the CARB police...
--------Andymon

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I built one of those engines. Never again. If you do it with Wiseco pistons, buy stock in an oil company and remove the cat. It wont take long for that oil to clean the stuffing out of the cat anyhow. A built engine is great for the track but not a great daily driver.

[Andymon]

Could you expand upon that? Did you not notice any difference with the extra cc or lighter internals? Was this a NA or FI engine? What were all the downsides?
Not that I'm gonna change my mind or anything, but I would at least like to know what it is I'm getting in to.
As a matter of fact, after driving a buddy's JRSC car and being thoroughly unimpressed, then finding that FM has suddenly dropped "Supercharger" from its vocabulary after it initially tried to CARB its entry (and vendor issues it seems), I was going to simply build a high compression 2.0 naturally aspirated motor and leave it at that. Glad I stumbled upon your site, and even more glad you have a board titled "CARB".
---------Andymon

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It was the 1.9L version. I didn't do the stroked crank. It was FI, coldside. I made 223 WHP as vs. my current stock engine at 213. It had the Carillo rods, Wiseco pistons, oversized SS valves, heavy springs, etc, etc. Everything you could think of except the stroker crank. Ran great. Was basically indestructable. Would probably do the 24 hours of LaMans and not burn a drop of oil. However, each time you started it cold or drove down the highway where you weren/t pushing the engine hard, it would consume oil. Everybody I know with forged pistons says the same thing. They have a different thermal coefficient of expansion and need to be worked hard (kept hot) to seal well.

If I were building a track car, I woud not hesitate to do the 2.0L Wiseco/stroker. I wouldn't do it for a street car.

[Griff]

The coldside would lose it's flavor if taken much beyond 220WHP anyhow. It is "intercooled" with the 5th injector (E-Cool) and that gets it nicely above 200WHP. If you want to go beyond 220WHP, you should consider putting upgraded internals into the engine.




Tom why do you think it would loose anything above 220whp ?

Has anyone tried water inj yet ?

On a MK1 the general opinion is that 220 lbft is the limits where things get interesting... the bhp is almost irrelevent.

As the torque is lower with the FFS than a turbo, the target bhp can be higher.

At least that is what my research has indicated.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I meant that some of the character of the coldside (nimbleness, idle, etc) might suffer. In order to pass 220 WHP, you will need to replace the stock injectors with larger injectors. I know a lot of people have done it but my opinion is that some of the great idle will suffer. As the injector size goes up and the WHP goes up, the heat in the engine goes up. Maybe someday people will take my kits up higher, I just don't feel comfortable selling it at those levels. Our hotside kit will also be sold at the same levels as the coldside. I know that you can take it further. but it will have to be done with aftermarket parts from other vendors (like the nice A/A IC from TDR) as, again, I don't feel comfortable with stock engines at levels above 220WHP.

[Banshee]

Tom why do you think it would loose anything above 220whp ?

Has anyone tried water inj yet ?

.

I'm the only one that I'm aware of that run water injection with the coldside unit. Keep in mind that I don't have E-Cool.

The coldside manifold actually has a port predrill for a aquamist injector. In addition to that, it also has two additional 1/8th port for additional water injector nozzle if you so choose. And finally, you can use the 5th injector port pre-blower on the TBA for an additional water injector nozzle if you so choose.

Without E-cool, I'm able to run the 105 pulley. I do get a little ping, but I use a very basic water injection kit (DYI). I'm experimenting with nozzle size and location right now. I think that once I'm done, I'll get the same power as the E-cool unit.

From what I hear, the horsepower/ping on 01+ is more limited by engine heat than Intake temp.