Gord96BRG's 96/99 Coldside dyno runs

[Gord96BRG]

Following on my thread in the Modifications section, I'll post my dyno results in the proper section! :)

First, background data -

Vehicle - Before, NA:
1996 Miata 1.8, Canadian spec
Racing Beat 4-1 header, dual outlet muffler
(otherwise completely stock engine)

Vehicle - After, Supercharged:
1996 Miata 1.8, Canadian spec
1999 cylinder head
BRP/FFS Coldside MP62 Supercharger (last unit sold by BRP)
115 crank pulley
Flyin Miata Link Obiwan standalone ECU
RC440 high impedance injectors (stock fuel pump, 99 fuel rail, 96 FPregulator)
Racing Beat 4-1 header, dual outlet muffler
Innovate LC-1 Wideband O2 sensor, hooked into Link ECU for wideband O2 monitoring and feedback/autotuning
Koyo 38mm radiator

(If any questions about specs, let me know)

I dyno'd the 'before' config in August 2005 on a Mustang dyno - the Mustang dynos typically read about 13% lower than a DynoJet. I dyno'd the 'After configuration on the same Mustang dyno on Oct 27, 2006.

Peak numbers from both sessions:

HP, NA (Mustang RWHP): 94.8 @ 6537 rpm (equiv. DynoJet: 107 RWHP)
TQ, NA (Mustang ft-lb): 86.1 @ 5190 rpm (equiv. DynoJet: 97.3 ft-lb)

HP, SC (Mustang): 166.2 @ 7307 rpm (equiv. DynoJet: 188 RWHP)
TQ, SC (Mustang): 134 @ 5727 rpm (equiv. DynoJet: 151 ft-lb)

I've included 2 graphs below (edit, I included a .zip file with 2 graphs below - when I attached the jpeg files, they got shrunk to thumbnail size only!)

The first is from Excel, where I plotted the HP and Torque vs. rpm data from the 2 runs against each other (I have a data file and Mustang viewer software from last week's run, but not from last year's - I only got a text file with basic numbers from that session). You can see a significant momentary drop in torque and power at ~6600 rpm, and another drop at ~7300 rpm. Those drops get explained in the next graph...

The second graph is from the Link datalogging of the dyno run, showing select parameters 8, of ~46 parameters that are logged by the Link. The graph is vs. time, so don't worry about the X axis - plotted are RPM (green), Manifold pressure MAP in kPa (light blue), Knock sensor (red), Ignition advance (med blue), Coolant temp *C (light green), Boost psi (another green), "Aux CF" which is the wideband O2 A/F reading (brown), and A/F target (another green).

It's really interesting to correlate the Link Datalog graph against the Dyno run graph - especially looking at the knock sensor! The spike in the red graph at data point 413 is at 6637 rpm, at which point the ECU pulled 2* of ignition timing instantly. Look back at the dyno chart, and the power dropped from 161 hp to 152 hp at that rpm - it lost 9 HP from that knock event and resultant timing retard!!!! At 7440 rpm, there's another spike in the knock sensor, and again 2* timing was pulled, and the dyno data shows 6 hp was lost at that event, immediately before the run ended.

Other interesting data points from the run:
- The Link datalog also shows how the coolant temp was climbing during the dyno run; it started out at 94C, and climbed to 102C at max rpm.
- Boost psi in the Link datalog peaks at 12.9 psi; the Mustang dyno measured a peak boost of 11.2 psi, but the shape of the boost curve is identical.
- At the start of the WOT dyno run, the A/F is ~12.6 @ 2500 rpm, richening to 12.0 by around 3600 rpm, then from 5600 rpm to 7400 rpm it gradually richens to an A/F ratio of 11.3.

From the slope of the curves and factoring the knock events, it is quite likely that without the knock events it would have peaked at ~175 Mustang dyno RWHP, or ~198 DynoJet RWHP. I wish I would have known about the knock affecting the WOT dyno pull, since I could have tuned it a bit better and done another run (I didn't look at the data log from the final WOT run until I got home :mad: ). It's possible that running a bit richer would have allowed a bit more timing, and thus a few more hp - it's likely that adding water injection would have allowed significantly more timing, and maybe 10 - 15 more hp??? However, any more tuning will have to wait until spring, since the snow came 2 days after the dyno run, and we won't have clear salt-free roads until April!

Any comments, questions, etc. welcomed.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Gord,

If it is at all possible, get the A/F numbers to add to the graph next time you dyno. I would love to know if it knocked and you were still rich enough. The knock sensor also picks up SC noise and can falsely 'assume' it is knock. I have some knock sensor relocation kits that will allow you to move it to the engine mount. Made them and never used them.

Did you actually hear knock at that point?

[J_Man]

Look above - he doesn't have a NB. He has a Link ECU in a NA with its own knock sensor (a flat response type Bosch sensor and a 8Khz bandpass filter inside the Link) which mounts to the engine mount. And I doubt it picks any noise as knock from the supercharger ;)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Thanks for pointing that out. I missed it. Guess the problem was the Link then.

[Gord96BRG]

Tom, as a fellow speed reader, I understand! ;) I did include an A/F graph in the Zip attachment in the first post, it's the second graph. That's from the Link datalog, and shows the A/F, knock sensor, rpm (and more) vs. time. I can see the data point by point, and in the first post listed some of the numbers. The A/F doesn't go lean when the knock happens; I didn't hear the knock but it's definitely a knock vs. background noise (you can see the background noise on the datalog).

At the knock event at 6637 rpm, the A/F was 11.75:1, but a pretty smooth A/F curve, no dips or spikes. Would you think I should be running richer?

I did get a PM on Miata.net suggesting that I needed to upgrade the fuel rail, AFPR, and fuel pump, to avoid uneven fueling and imminent piston meltdown. He suggested that the #1 cylinder would be running much leaner than the #4 (since the 99 fuel rail feeds from the back, and I've added the stock 96 fpr and return line on the front), and that would be causing the ping. His thought was that fixing the fueling would eliminate any pinging and allow significantly more timing without needing water injection.

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Gord,

With 12:1 A/F or slightly under, a 94-97 block, 99 head, 115mm crank pulley, that car ought to be doing 210+WHP. The reason I questioned the knock event is that, with your setup, the possibility of knock should be almost impossible. Especially at those WHP levels. That's why I suggested a false knock sense.


A few weeks ago a customer had a blower with a gear that went bad. I sent him a new one and sent his off to Magnuson for repair. They rebuilt it (kept the case and replaced everything else). I have it here and you are welcome to it. I will let you have it cheap as I feel sorry that you got stuck with one of those ported blowers. It will cure a miriad of your problems. Mostly, it will get back that lost WHP. Sounds like you have ample fuel available to cover the added power. Let me know.

[Gord96BRG]

Looks like I am taking Tom up on his offer - thanks, Tom! Still, an expensive lesson... when someone says "blower porting will add 10 hp", ask to see the dyno sheets from several different before/after comparisons!

I'm still debating if I should install a water injection setup while I have the blower off for this swap. I want to re-dyno with the same config with the new/rebuilt blower from Tom, but am wondering if I would be able to get further benefits from WI on this setup.

[Banshee]

Gord,

If it makes you feel any better, BRP offered free porting to all the original MP62 coldside to correct the horsepower deficit that they were advertising.

With 2001+, before porting, we were 40+ horsepower under the advertised 190, and with ping I might add.

[Banshee]

As far as water injection goes, I would cough up the $20 for the Aquamist water jet and install and cap it off while the blower is off. Much easier that way. I installed the water jet with the blower on, and it was a real PITA.

I would go with the 0.5mm jet. I'm currently running a 0.4mm jet, and I find is a touch too small.

[Griff]

There is definately some power through either timing advance or increasing boost with water injection.

The higher powered CS M45's used it.

However I feel you would have to inject pre blower or (and ?) in the individual runners as there is no way it will mix equally if injected post blower with a single nozzle IMO.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

New un-ported blower is on it's way to Canada. :)

[99mx5]

Gordon,
You may want to dyno the car after the blower swap before making other changes to verify the difference.

[chuckerants]

Gordon,
You may want to dyno the car after the blower swap before making other changes to verify the difference.

I'd second that.

If Ari wasn't so precise about things (like me and most others I suspect), we'd never know for sure that BRP's claim that porting increasing HP was complete bullshit.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Hey Gord,

How's the blower swap coming. Get rid of that ported blower yet? Some of us are waiting to see the extra 15WHP or more pop up.

Zigzag gets ~214WHP at 7600 with a 120mm pulley with his ported blower. Most of us with stock engines and non-ported blowers are getting that at 7000 RPM with 110/115mm pulleys. With your setup and 7600 RPM, you ought to take the top prize for max Coldside WHP. 230+ wouldn't surprise me. Then Chip and I will have to do some real work to catch up. :)

[kompressorz]

Do not expect to see 15 Free RWHP from Blower porting @ 190-200RWHP, I have tried both and they are similar in power @ that level... when cranking up the boost... this is where you'll see the benefit of blower porting no doubt. I have some blowers ported and non ported in my garage and I will test it again next time I am going to the dyno using the 140MM. Saying that blower porting is bullshit.....well it has been good for my setup, but might be bullshit on Coldsiders who knows....

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yes he will. We already know he is way low on WHP for the pulleys he is running. Same problem Ari had. The new blower will cure that. Zigzag is also running way lower WHP than he should. It is good that he is making 214 but he also needs a 120mm pulley and 7600 RPM to get there. He should be making way more than that. My 99 is a bone stock engine and the same kit he has and made 213 at 7000 and smaller pulley. As does Chip and other kits. Chuck is up in that same WHP area with his hotside and 115mm pulley at 7000. Mark has to get to 7600 to make up for the loss in flow. I wish he would post his dyno so we can see what it does at 7000 like the rest of us.

If you think the "probably" 10s of thousands of flow bench hours the Eaton folks have done over years and years of testing can be improved that easily, you are wrong. Dead wrong. If it helps the hotside kits, it is because the TB adaptor does not properly feed the rotors of the blower as they should be fed. I will be happy to explain how the rotors grab air and move it to the output so you will better understand why cutting away that section of the inlet is wrong if you wish. You just need to understand the principle of the Eaton's operation.

[chuckerants]

Let me be clear on my porting comment.

The porting of the MP62 superchargers by BRP and their claim that it MAKES 15~20HP over unported blowers with the same configuration is COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

Ari has before and after dynos of his coldside. I wonder if anyone else can say the same AND post it for all to see?

[kompressorz]

Here is a comment by Gary at Track Dog taken from the old BRP forum.

"Yes, porting does improve the blower, but with a trade off in noise level. We increased our boost level by 1/2 PSI, but at cooler temperatures, about 25 deg. That does not sound like a lot, but a 1/2 here a 1/2 ther adds up.

As I mentioned, it is noiser at idle compared to stock. Unless you are looking for that next 1/2 PSI or are using it for track use, I would hold back modifing the SC. I would look at the TB first and air flow issues first.

Regards,

Gary
TDR"


So I guess that even Gary does not know what he is talking about......

[kompressorz]

Yes he will. We already know he is way low on WHP for the pulleys he is running. Same problem Ari had. The new blower will cure that. Zigzag is also running way lower WHP than he should. It is good that he is making 214 but he also needs a 120mm pulley and 7600 RPM to get there. He should be making way more than that. My 99 is a bone stock engine and the same kit he has and made 213 at 7000 and smaller pulley. As does Chip and other kits. Chuck is up in that same WHP area with his hotside and 115mm pulley at 7000. Mark has to get to 7600 to make up for the loss in flow. I wish he would post his dyno so we can see what it does at 7000 like the rest of us.

If you think the "probably" 10s of thousands of flow bench hours the Eaton folks have done over years and years of testing can be improved that easily, you are wrong. Dead wrong. If it helps the hotside kits, it is because the TB adaptor does not properly feed the rotors of the blower as they should be fed. I will be happy to explain how the rotors grab air and move it to the output so you will better understand why cutting away that section of the inlet is wrong if you wish. You just need to understand the principle of the Eaton's operation.


Yes Tom, and for the benefit of all of us that wants to understand, would you please explain how the rotors grab the air and why porting is that bad

[chuckerants]

Here is a comment by Gary at Track Dog taken from the old BRP forum.

"Yes, porting does improve the blower, but with a trade off in noise level. We increased our boost level by 1/2 PSI, but at cooler temperatures, about 25 deg. That does not sound like a lot, but a 1/2 here a 1/2 ther adds up.

As I mentioned, it is noiser at idle compared to stock. Unless you are looking for that next 1/2 PSI or are using it for track use, I would hold back modifing the SC. I would look at the TB first and air flow issues first.

Regards,

Gary
TDR"


So I guess that even Gary does not know what he is talking about......

Ask Gary@TDR how he does his porting and then ask Brant. I'm willing to bet that Gary can explain to you EXACTLY what and how he is porting his blowers whereas Brant, well, just ask him. Also, Gary will admit (at least he has told me this in a conversation) that he leaves the porting of the blower as a last resort for increasing power after adding the BTB, better intake manifold, etc.

[kompressorz]

Ask Gary@TDR how he does his porting and then ask Brant. I'm willing to bet that Gary can explain to you EXACTLY what and how he is porting his blowers whereas Brant, well, just ask him. Also, Gary will admit (at least he has told me this in a conversation) that he leaves the porting of the blower as a last resort for increasing power after adding the BTB, better intake manifold, etc.


Well @ the WHP level as I am @ the moment and all the upgrades I have already on my setup and many discussions I had in the past with Gary, I don't see why porting a blower in a complete NO GO, I think that Gary himself is having a ported one on his car. BTW Chuck the ported blower on my car has been ported by myself and not Brant,BRP or SOT, It is been ported mainly @ the areas where it was ruff surface and so one... the shape has been kept pretty intact... but the inlet and outlet surfaces are now clean and smooth....

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I think we are not discussing the same thing.

kompressorz. If you are talking polishing, I agree that it is probably worthwhile. I worry about filings in the bearings as one person posted on mnet but you are correct. The castings do come with some rough edges and the outlet especially could use some cleanup. What Chuck and I are discussing is the removal of serious amounts of metal at the inlet to the blower and reshaping the inlet and outlet ports of the blower.

Even port matching the blower to my computer designed BTB adaptor would have some benefit but I am not sure it would out weigh the potential for problems with metal dust in the bearings. Sorry if I mis-understood your post or if you mis-understood mine. Eaton has probably spent 10s of thousands of man hours to come up with the inlet and outlet shape for maximum flow with minimum heat. To simply decide to dramatically reshape the inlet and outlet without air flow bench testing is wrong.

The rotors are designed to take air in the back and move it to the outer side walls and then around and out the bottom. When you remove copious amounts of metal from the area around the outer rear of the opening, you create slip as the rotor tries to lock in the fixed amount of air and move it to the outlet, thus lowering the amount of air transferred. As these are fixed displacement blowers, lowering the amount of air per revolution is counter productive. You now have to spin the blower faster to get back to the same level of air (Zigzag's 120mm pulley and extra 10% RPM, for example) to equate the non-ported blower ay 6900 RPM and 110/115mm pulley. That was my point and I'll stick to it. I doubt Eaton came up with that unusual inlet design and unusual outlet design by accident. Those two shapes are important to the efficiency of the blower.

[99mx5]

I agree with both Jean and Tom. Jean, if you look at my thread here:

http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50

I smoothed and polished and port-matched the blower inlet and the throttle body adapter and also cleaned up the manifold ports to match the head ports. These mods gained 10 WHP over non-matched and smoothed parts. The BRP porting removed lots of material at the sides of the blower intake and removed the air ramp/ air fence in the blower intake for the rotor blades to close in on to trap air as Tom says.

Im only one case. Im sure my old blower isnt the only ported one thats out there. Im just suprised that others havent posted their results.

One thing I did notice was that Magnuson did introduce a new revision in their blower manufacturing. The newer blowers from Manguson have a different casting that results in a smoother blower intake without the ridge around the bypass port, cleaner intake sides with less casting flash and a better formed blower exhaust port.

[Gord96BRG]

Hey Gord,

How's the blower swap coming. Get rid of that ported blower yet? Some of us are waiting to see the extra 15WHP or more pop up.

Zigzag gets ~214WHP at 7600 with a 120mm pulley with his ported blower. Most of us with stock engines and non-ported blowers are getting that at 7000 RPM with 110/115mm pulleys. With your setup and 7600 RPM, you ought to take the top prize for max Coldside WHP. 230+ wouldn't surprise me. Then Chip and I will have to do some real work to catch up. :)

I won't be looking for 230 just yet! ;) I haven't turned a wrench yet, but I just found that I have next week off work, and should have all the WI bits tomorrow. The problem will be that it snowed a fair bit last week, and right now it's -29C outside (~ -20F), so the car is stranded in the garage! The garage is heated (in-floor radiant heat), so I can work in comfort, but aside from starting it up I can't take it out. I suppose I could always borrow the winter tires from the 2000 Miata, but it would be hard to re-tune the Link when getting major wheelspin in 4th gear! Of course, we could get a Chinook wind that would melt all the snow in a week, and I could be at the dyno the week before Christmas... :D

[Zigzag]

Wow! A lot of discussion about this.....even got some PM's from unhappy campers in this group. Tom, Brant and the rest of the BRP/FFS gang have been good to me....please stop sending me private messages bashing all of these guys.....you guys know who you are.

I won't debate, disregard or defend all the tweaks my car has to make the power it does. I also have not been to a dyno in about 9-10 months and should probably go back....I can't find my old graphs anywhere from when I changed out my ECU for the modified one. In a recent SCCA hillclimb event I was the fastest street legal car there and placed 9th overall. She is a fun daily driver/part time race car wanna be.

Just for the record, I have a 96 coldside with the 96 head....no better flowing 99 head here....I wish. The blower is ported, the ECU now runs to about 7600 rpm....I have a 5th injector pre blower....(pre e-cool). I make decent power, no idle issues.....my ELF actually works 99% of the time (I may be one of the few).

I never meant to rattle the cages here.......Ari?....I need more flavored beer!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Mark, I think it is great that you made 214. I also think it is great that you can pull 7600RPM. I have a spare ECU and am considering that fix to it for a test as well for my 99. All I am saying is that you could have even more WHP and own top honors if the blower wasn't ported. Send me the crystal fix and I'll do it to the spare ECU. That might be my ticket to 225WHP. At the rate my WHP was climbing at cutoff, there was 15WHP from 6500 to 7000 RPM and it was a straight line. If the line holds, that should be easy 225. I believe it was the 110mm pulley for my 213WHP run. With a 120mm pulley at 7600 RPM, I think I'll break something. :eek:

[Zigzag]

Tom, it is an easy mod to do. Open your ECU and look for Y1 (clocking crystal) Desolder it (2 thru hole legs) and replace it with a new one. The old one is a 4.0 Mhz crystal....it will have 4.0 written on it. The new one you want to use is a 4.433619 Mhz crystal....I got mine from Digikey part# 300-6007-ND. It will be a little taller than the old one but it will fit without hitting the cover of the ECU. Don't freak out when the tach swings to what looks like 8000 rpm...the tach is not very accurate and the real rpm is about 7600.

Like I said....I'm not going to get in a pissin contest with some of the folks on here or the other sites about what does and doesn't work...my setup works fine for me. I'm sure e-cool could buy me a few more ponies, maybe a lighter clutch, and a few other ideas but I am happy with it ....as is. WHP contest? I will leave that up to the guys willing to push their engines to the max. My tired old 135,000 + mile engine doesn't need to be used as a test mule for max WHP.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Thanks. I'll order the crystal now. I was wondering what to do with that old ECU. Only thing wrong with it is that the IAC output is dead. For a track ECU, who cares?

Tired at 134K, oh oh. I have 125 already on my 99. It must only have a couple months of life left then. ;)

[Zigzag]

Naw....she is good for many many more miles.....mine just lives at redline most of the time....many track events, autocrosses, drag races, etc, etc....I have a couple other NAs both 90 models with over 200K on both of them. My 91 has 151K. We all know how tuff these engines are!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Whew! :) BTW, my 99 has been 0ver 200WHP for over 95,000 miles now. Yep. They are strong engines.

I ordered 6 of the crystals. Shipping and handling was way more than the crystals. If anybody need/wants one, let me know.

[Dr Evol]

I wish you would have said something last night. I have a spare crystal I could have given you.

[Banshee]

What else does the crystal affect other than redline?

[Zigzag]

Nothing at all...it is only used for the fuel cutoff. Be careful not to use one any hihgher than that our your redline will be above 7600 and you might float a valve or worse!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I thought that I read that it effected the OBD II?

[J_Man]

I thought that I read that it effected the OBD II?

Correct. Once you put a different crystal it changes the timing for the entire ECU. The ECU thinks it times the same as before and it wouldn't know there is a different frequency driving it. That's why the higher rev limiter point is like a side effect - because of the ECU not knowing that the time pulses have a shorter length.

Other side effects other than the rev limiter because of the different frequency are your fueling map, ignition map, idle control, etc. will be be a bit off than stock and also you OBD-II communications will stop working because of the skewed frequencies the ECU will fail to sync with external devices

[Zigzag]

So far J my OBD II seems to be working ok. I think my car is the bastard son of satan and wieird things either work or more common things don't.....

[Kyp J]

So far J my OBD II seems to be working ok. I think my car is the bastard son of satan and wieird things either work or more common things don't.....

I like this idea. I can never figure out how to spell "wieird", so spell it with "i" in both places. Send it to Websters.

[J_Man]

Or maybe a possibility is that you have a better OBD II reader which can still connect if the frequency is a bit off? I don't know which readers the other guys were trying :)

So far J my OBD II seems to be working ok. I think my car is the bastard son of satan and wieird things either work or more common things don't.....