2001 hotside, A/A IC, 110/65,BTB, E-Cool, PC-Pro & J&S

[Serpico]

I posted earlier that I was making 9psi with the 110/65 pulleys, but it seems that my gauge is off quite a bit. I'm down about 5whp from the 115mm pulley even though I added the BTB.

Run #19 was with the J&S pulling about .8 degrees of timing per pound of boost starting around 3-4psi.

Run #20 was with the J&S pulling about .4 per pound of boost starting around 3-4psi.

Run #21 I turned the boost retard off on the J&S. Zero pinging on 93 octane and 65 degree ambient temps.

I'm losing about 2-3psi across the IC.

Overall I'm pretty impressed that I'm above 180whp with only 7 pounds of boost. Drivability is very good right now and I have heard zero pinging .

Guess I just need to spin the blower a little faster. Think I'll just skip the 115 and go right for the 120 now that I can pull some timing if I need to.

[dazooom]

I'll have a 140mm pulley you can have, real cheap, in a few days. It sure looks like the PC PRO straighten's out the fuel on the low end, that the ELF, hasn't been able to do. (At least on the 01-05)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I'm sorry but from what I saw on Chuck's hotside, your boost numbers and power are way low. Is that a ported blower inlet?????

[Serpico]

I have no idea what BRP sold me. It could be ported for all I know.

Thanks for the offer Dazoom, but I think I'll pass on the 140mm :)

I think I've come full circle in this FI'd journey. I started out with a restrictive intercooler , 7psi, no pinging and 174whp back in June and now I'm back to 7psi, no pinging (so far) and 183whp (a little better).

[chuckerants]

FWIW, I was making 178 HP when I was using the stock 100mm pulley and had a clogged CAT.

With the 110mm pulley, no CAT, and the BTB I made 202HP.

Now that I've been running a 115mm pulley, I even got a P0103 CEL which according to Bill formerly of BRP could be indicative of too much air flowing past the MAF. He said he got it at 210 or 220HP on his 99/00. I have now removed the plastic screen in front of the MAF and haven't got the CEL again.

Hopefully in the next month or so, I can go back on the dyno.

As for getting accurate boost numbers, I'd be recording the session off the SS software and looking at it later.

[Serpico]

I do think that if you added an A/A IC (just like mine) , you would be making about the same boost/power.

You were making around 10psi with the 110/65 pulleys right?

That's about what I'm making pre IC.

[dazooom]

I wish that thumbnail(not the thumbnail, but the image that the thumbnail, references), was a little larger....I just realized what I was looking at when I went to my 19" monitor, vice my laptop! lol...That's about the smoothest fuel line I've ever seen!

[Serpico]

trying one more time....

[dazooom]

There you go! That works!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, if you get a chance to pull the TB off and take a peek at the MP62, it should look like this. When it was "ported", the outer pointed tips were hoged away, opening up those corners and killing the rotors ability to grab air. Thus reducing flow.


http://www.FastForwardSuperchargers.com/superchargers/mp62.jpg

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Steve,

There is another easily overlooked possibility. You should take the time to remove the TB and look inside and make absolutely sure the bypass valve is closing. If that plate doesn't close completely, you could loose a couple PSI and a lot of WHP in a hurry.

that would also let you check for porting.

[chuckerants]

Holy crap, that AFR is DEAD FLAT! WoW!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Steve, you might want to add one light to the yellow/blue setting. The curve will stay flat but add a few more drops of fuel.

Chuck, yours would look like that too if you would drop by and let me update your software. You have the ONLY PC-Pro out there with the old software.

[Serpico]

I'll take a look at the bypass plate inside the blower and see if it's closing all the way. Thanks for the suggestion!

As far as the porting goes, if it is indeed ported I'm pretty much stuck with it. It doesn't make any wierd noises , doesn't leak and it hasn't exploded....so I'll leave it alone.

Tom, just the yellow/blue and not the red/blue as well?

Chuck, I'd get the update if I were you :)

[chuckerants]

I think Tom may have forgotten that I have his garage reserved next Sunday. :D

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Chuck, it is now on my calendar. :)

Steve, your 'curve' is so perfect, I would just do the yellow/blue. Red/blue is for when you want to increase the fuel to ramp up to redline. If you have any redline ping, you might want to up the red/blue one light as well. PC-Pro does a good job of fuel control, doesn't it. :)

[Serpico]

It does an extemely good job of controlling the fuel!!!! MUCH better than the other thing I had......:biggrin:

[J_Man]

trying one more time....

Nice AFR line!

[Scuba Steve]

I have no idea what BRP sold me. It could be ported for all I know.


Didn't you buy the blower Parke had sent back and BRP had to rebuild it? If so, I beleive that blower was ported.

Edit - I just looked at the old posts on mnet and saw you posted the casing was to have been replaced so the blower is no longer ported. Hopefully that is the case.

[Serpico]

You are correct Scuba Steve!

That's why I said "I have no idea what BRP sold me".
Brant told me he replaced the casing, so the blower was no longer ported.

And we all know that he doesn't fib.....:confused:

I'm hoping that he was straight with me, because at this point in the game it's not like I'm going to replace the blower.

I made the deal with Brant due to my impatience. I paid for my kit in full on Feb. 20 and by mid May I was starting to get a little annoyed that I had not received anything. As part of the deal I got the RS midpipe and I only had to wait another 3 months to get that.....

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Maybe he ported it as a bonus for your patience? If so, that answers the symptoms/problems you have. Then you might want to take Wayne up on the 140. I think you can spin the pi$$ out of a ported blower without worrying about making too much boost/power.

Fib? Naw. "The check's in the mail."

[Serpico]

Hmmmmmm????

[Serpico]

one more shot.....

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Not ported. Hmm.

Something is really weird.

[Serpico]

well that settles the ported question at least.....

I do know that I'm losing at least 2psi across the intercooler. I confirmed that at the dyno back in September.

I'll go over all my connections again just to make sure I don't have a leak at one of the IC piping connections.

I'm far from an expert, but >180whp from 7psi sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Maybe I just need to spin the blower a little quicker.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

180 at 7PSI actually sounds great. My problem is the 7PSI. I just think the 110/65 pulley ought to make ~12 and -2 for the IC ought to net ~10.

[kompressorz]

You need to install a 126mm to make 12 PSI with IC. (TDR)

[FormerDatsun510Man]

My experience on my car and others running air/air IC and BTB:

Post IC boost:

120 - 11psi (BRP)
126 - 12psi (BRP and TDR)
130 - 13psi (TDR and 4-rib)
135 - 14psi (BRP)
140 - 15psi (TDR)
150 - 17psi (TDR)

Whether 4-rib, 6-rib or BRP IC (later version of small size), TDR IC the boost seen post IC is pretty consistent. Anyway, based on this I think the 110 pulley should be around 9psi peak, or about 2psi higher than you were seeing. FWIW since you have the extra injector and J&S you can safely run a 126 pulley, however I would first figure out why the boost is reading a little low post IC. It does seem to jive with the lower rwhp reading. Perhaps vaccum leak? Make sure those silicon hoses and clamps are properly tightened... I have had more than one leak on my setup when everything seemed fine. If that all checks out ok, my next guess would be that the IC is not flowing enough.

Bill

[Serpico]

I did take pre & post intercooler readings with the 115/65 pulleys and standard throttle body back in September and made 10.2psi pre-intercooler and 8.2psi post intercooler.

With the first small intercooler I only made 7psi post intercooler .

Just how tight is "tight" when it comes to the silicone intercooler couplings?
I tightened them as tight as I could with a screw driver. Should I put a socket on them a really tighten them up?

[Scuba Steve]

Just how tight is "tight" when it comes to the silicone intercooler couplings?
I tightened them as tight as I could with a screw driver. Should I put a socket on them a really tighten them up?

You shouldn't have to use a socket. I use a 1/4" drive ratchet/socket and basically keep my hand on the ratchet where the socket is attached (not the handle). I doubt I am tightening any more than one would with a screwdriver.

[Serpico]

I'm pretty sure they're tight enough.

The only other thing I can think of is that the IC pipes themselves could be leaking. When I got them they looked like crap....unfinished & very rough . The welded joints were not very nice looking :(

I cleaned them up and painted them, but they just might have some small leaks.

and yes,,, the IC itself could be the problem. I picked up one psi when I switched from the first small IC to the second smaller IC (with larger cross tubing). But there's not much I can do about that at this point in the game. I'm not going to drop another $500 or so for a larger IC core just to pick up another pound or so of boost.

I'll probably order a 120mm pulley and call it a day.

[Scuba Steve]

I'm pretty sure they're tight enough.

The only other thing I can think of is that the IC pipes themselves could be leaking. When I got them they looked like crap....unfinished & very rough . The welded joints were not very nice looking :(

I cleaned them up and painted them, but they just might have some small leaks.

Have you replaced the crappy hose clamps they came with? My FMII and I believe most current kits come with much better clamps.

[Serpico]

I'm afraid I still have the crappy original hose clamps......

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Yes, they don't need to be overtight... just thought I would give you a FYI as I had some problems with mine leaking in the past due to crookage or leaking clamps.

I am wondering at this point if it is either the blower or the IC. Both the pre IC pressure seems a bit low which would point towards the blower, but at 9psi pre-blower, 2 psi pressure drop seems a little high ... I would expect more like 1-1.5. Also, I would expect closer to 190-200rwhp with the 110 pulley and BTB. Fuel looks great, so it is probably a matter of airflow. Did you rule out the cat? If so, yes a bigger pulley is probably your best option. Kind of the big hammer approach, but a $60 pulley is a lot cheaper than a $500 IC and $1000 blower.

Bill

[Serpico]

I got the cat from BRP about 4 months ago.

I think Blown03 has an '01 with a 126/65mm ,TDR IC (STB..I think) combo and he only sees 9psi and if my memory serves me correctly he makes about 195whp.

Gary at TDR told me that if an '01 and a '00 have the same setup, that the '00 will make about 10 more whp. I made 187whp with the 115/65 pulleys/ STB and I think Scuba Steve made around 197whp with the same setup.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

On my '00 it dynoed the following:

TDR A/A, BTB, JR Header, Stock Exhaust:
67.5 (4-rib, the same pulley as a 126/65 6-rib) - 215rwhp/181ft-lb, 12psi peak
65 (4-rib, like a 130/65 6-rib) - 221rwhp/187ft-lb, 13psi peak

120/65 pulley, Stock TB, JR Header, Goodwin 2.5" midpipe/exhaust:
BRP early A/A - 190rwhp
TDR A/A - 211rwhp

Didn't dyno mine with the later BRP A/A, but I figure it would be somewhere between those two numbers. The HFI manifold doesn't make much of an impact on peak hp, however it makes a dramatic improvement in throttle response and driveability. Almost makes the Hotside drive like a Coldside, except with more torque :). However, its been an expensive road to take. If I had to do it all over again I would have just gone with the Coldside.

[Serpico]

It seems that the one really big difference in all this is the fact that you have the TDR IC which is bigger than my BRP IC and probably flows much better.

not to mention that I have higher compression and VVT.... :(

I sure would like to see some dyno charts (SHOWING BOOST) from those with the BRP small intercooler. As I have said before, my boost gauge still shows 9-9.5psi right at redline, so either my gauge is off or the dyno's boost gauge is off.

I guess time will tell when more people start boosting/intercooling '01 & later engines.

Overall I'm happy with the way my car is running right now, but I'll probably go ahead and slap a 120mm on it anyway.... :)

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Currently I am also with the BRP small intercooler (later better flowing version)... lost my TDR while working at BRP. I only dynoed once when I had the BRP small intercooler (early version) which was 190rwhp with the 120 pulley and stock TB. Currently my setup is back with the BTB, the FFS 120/65 pulleys, HFI manifold and BRP small intercooler. Oh, and I also just put in the PC Pro, which I am loving right now. It made a nice improvement in fuel management along with ease of use and installation. No more laptops, screwdrivers and tankfuls of gas to tune every time a change is made to the setup. No more hacking of the stock wiring harness for me. In fact, I intend now to undo all the damage I did to the stock wiring harness. At some point I am removing all the other piggyback devices and soldering in new wiring in the factory harness. Lessons learned :). Likewise I am removing the water injection (no longer used) and will clean up the engine bay. When all that is done I intend to put in a fresh engine/trans, bigger IC and hopefully get back to 220rwhp like I had before. Funny thing is that I am ending up spending thousands of dollars just to get back to where it performed originally.

Bill

[dazooom]

Well, here's an update on mine....With no relief from SOT on the AA IC they sent me, weeks ago, that DOESN'T work on my kit, I had a BRP type bracket made to hold the TDR IC, I purchased used. Then, I had a pad welded on each end tank, and holes tapped for the four bolts to mount the TDR IC, to the BRP type bracket. Installed the IC last Saturday. My car still see's 15PSI, and no audible pinging! Will be installing 2 new pulley's from FFS in a few more days, along with a PC PRO. Dropping the pulley's down to 65/130, and replacing my new Mazdaspeed clutch, that is slipping, because of the present power/torque, (232/220), with a new SPEC II. Then, off to the dyno! My car even feels stronger with the TDR IC, vs either BRP IC's.

In a few days my spare, useless, parts bin will be full! An OEM longblock, RB header, 2 AA IC's, 2 pulley's, an ELF, Mazdaspeed clutch, and a 55mm Koyo, that was left at BRP, wich possibly ended up as a BRP asset, when Barker bought out BRP...

Lessons learned....Too many to list. But the most important one is go with a vendor that has an interest in HIS company! One that is READILY available via their forum, or a cell phone, or answer's e-mails, in a TIMELY manner. It doesn't matter if you pay $2000 for a kit, or $8000. If there isn't TIMELY support, your going to suffer.

Thankfully, there are vendors like Tom at FFS, and Gary at Trackdog Racing, that are easily available, and eager to help you to get the end results from the supercharger kit that you THOUGHT you were getting, in the first place.

[Serpico]

Glad to hear the new TDR IC is working well for you Dazooom! I'm looking forward to seeing your new dyno results!!!! Please include the boost graph again if you can. I'd really like to know how much pressure drop you get with it.

I found this on Corky Bell's website....

"For good solid performance, the pressure loss across the intercooler ought to be kept to less than 1.0 to 1.5 psi. If any pressure loss in excess of 4 psi is measured, then the intercooler is not suited for the job and certainly harming the performance."

Mine seems to be around 2-2.5psi, so I think I'm OK. I just need to spin the blower a little quicker if I want some more power....

Tom,
Do you have any 120mm pulleys on the shelf????


Bill, FWIW I made 175whp with the first small IC and 115/65 pulleys & STB. So with a 120mm I probably would have made 180whp . That seems to agree with what Gary @ TDR says about the differences between the '00 &'01s.

[dazooom]

I'll see if they can monitor both, pre and post boost...I'm just waiting on the pulley's, then, I'll have Mazda install my clutch...Put like 100 miles or so on it, then, off to the dyno. I will post the results...

I don't know if your boost is low or not..I doubt if the reading is wrong at the dyno. Well, I'd do what your looking to do...up the pulley! You wanna try my 140? NAW! Cause I already know that with your IC, you will ping big time with that pulley! I'm hoping it won't with a 120... Won't be too much longer and you will get it right!

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Glad you are finally getting back on track Dazooom. I will be following shortly so that I will probably have the same setup. Like you did on yours, I will put in another engine first.

You won't be disappointed with the PC Pro. It just plugs into the factory harness in about 5 minutes... no cutting or splicing. Adjusting the fuel curve is so easy a 5 year old could do it :). The PC Pro itself is barely bigger than a credit card and has three buttons you press to adjust the fuel. I was able to tune mine on the street in about 30 minutes.

Bill

[Scuba Steve]

Dazoom - Glad to see things are starting to work out, sounds like we are all going to have a fair amount of replaced parts when complete. This spring I am replacing pulleys, radiator, ELF (with a PcPro) and installing a wideband. Once the car is running well, I may add a BTB.

Once the pulleys and PcPro are on, I am taking it to the dyno again. I will have a pre and post intercooler reading done. I am curious to see what my loss is.

[Scuba Steve]

Gary at TDR told me that if an '01 and a '00 have the same setup, that the '00 will make about 10 more whp. I made 187whp with the 115/65 pulleys/ STB and I think Scuba Steve made around 197whp with the same setup.

I made 201rwhp at 6500rpm ( I shut down early). I suspect I would have had a couple more if I ran it to 7000rpm.

I am curious if this issue with the '01+ cars exisits only with a SC and if so why? The '01 turbo cars do not seem to make less power then the 99/00.

[dazooom]

Sounds good Steve! I'm beginning to think that there's gonna be a bunch of us with BRP hotsides, that will finally have some smiles on our faces! It's not real hard to replace those defective BRP mechanical/electrical parts, (just more money). I'm just so darn happy I decided not to get the BRP R4 tatoo, as part of my turn-key install.:ack2:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Dazoom, your pulley is finished but waiting for anodize. It got a back seat to the TPS pieces for the 94-97 guys. I am sorry for the delay.

The new pulleys and PC-Pro should make a significant change. A little less power with the smaller (130mm) pulley but you will still kick C5 butt. :)

[dazooom]

Not a problem Tom. At least I know that when I get something from you, even if I have to wait a couple of days, that it WILL work! The delay will allow me to clean up my engine bay and polish all the shiny stuff!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I guess that means I'll have to find somebody else for my new $2500 250WHP turbo kit?

[chuckerants]

I just verified (on Sunday) that Tom has ONE 120mm pulley left on his shelves. :)

[Serpico]

I decided to hold off on the 120mm pulley for a while. I want to see how my car does this summer before raising the boost any further.

I did order some more intake tubing from Tom because I really had to stretch the tubing in order for it to reach the BRP cold air box and as a result I have a serious kink in the hose at the throttle body connection.

I'm going to kick myself in the butt if this turns out to be the reason my boost/power is lower than expected :mad:

[Scuba Steve]

Actually I bet you will be dancing in the street if that is the cause. Better to have a simple inexpensive solution :cheers2:

[Scuba Steve]

Did you receive the replacement intake tubing yet? I'm curious if it made a difference.

[Serpico]

I got it this afternoon and went for a drive for the first time in a week. It was a balmy 15 degrees , so I took advantage of the good weather......

I did have to add more fuel with the PC-Pro. My A/F started out at 13:1, so I added a couple lights to the Yellow & Red and got it back down to a nice 12.3:1.

I'm not sure if I had to add more fuel because of the kink being removed or whether it was just the temperature outside. The intercooler pipe going into the intake manifold felt like it had freon running through it..... :)


All in all, everything feels great and I even managed to get a little sideways a few times when I power shifted into 2nd....... :biggrin:

Thanks Tom.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Awesome. More air needs more fuel would be my guess.

[Scuba Steve]

Awesome. More air needs more fuel would be my guess.

That would be a good thing :shifty: More air+more fuel = more power, lets hope that is the case :yes:

[Serpico]

I mananged to drive some more yesterday and I'm very happy with the way everything is running. It doesn't take much throttle to get into boost and acceleration is extremely good. If I manage to make it through the summer with no pinging, I may up the crank pulley one more size and call it good. But as it is right now I have more than enough power to get into trouble..... :biggrin:

Tom, thanks again for the FREE PC-Pro/harness and all the other stuff I've bought from you.

[dazooom]

That's great Serpico! I need a couple more weeks driving around town, to get some miles on my new, SPEC II, then, I'm off to the dyno.....and will post results..

[Serpico]

I anxious to see how everything turns out Dazooom. Good luck at the dyno!

Since my boost gauge seems to be a little off (compared to the dyno's boost gauge) it's hard to say just how much boost I'm making, but now that I've unkinked the intake hose my boost gauge is now over 10psi at redline :)

All I know is I now have a bigger grin while driving :biggrin: