Bad news and even worse news.

[Banshee]

Well, Just went to the dyno.

First the bad news.
Maxed out at 145 (dynojet equivalent 155)
The airfuel was around 11.5-12.5


What's the worse news then?

Well I got ping. And that's with the 95mm pulley, iridium 8 range plugs, and vvt cam mod.

I just don't know what else to do.

I'll post the dyno plot when I get home.

the only good news is my little narrow band meter was dead on accurate.

[socal pat]

Although it's not evident at the moment the good news is that it has to be something simple. You will find it and you will have the power back. Hang in there :)

[Banshee]

http://brpforum.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/7/8/1/7811092522/7811092522_miata2001hp.jpg?ts=445B7718&key=28F662D25101C6FBA9469CE15DE0B604&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fbrpforum.infopop.cc%2Fgroupe e%2Fforums%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F8811092522%2Fmiata2001h p.jpg

http://brpforum.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/3/0/2/3021092522/3021092522_airfuel.jpg?ts=445B7729&key=A60CB96541B4D6397247DB8D01382395&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fbrpforum.infopop.cc%2Fgroupe e%2Fforums%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F4021092522%2Fairfuel.jp g

those are the run. OUCH!!!!!!!!![/url]

[Banshee]

unfortunately this is dead on accurate to what brp got.

http://www.brperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=VVT%20CONTROL

[socal pat]

Sorry for posting out of ignorance :oops: I thought you were running a FFSC in which case those BRP #s wouldn't be applicable. Once again sorry.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The 95mm pulley ought to get 175WHP with no ping. Something is drastically wrong. I don't know about the VVT "mod" but, if it is like the SC porting, I wouldn't be surprised you lost WHP.

Just out of curiosity, you are also running something other than 91 octane?

Tell us about your exhaust. While you were on the dyno, did you try running with the exhaust dropped from the header? My 05 has onloy 14K miles but I am starting to hear the rattle in the cat.

What was your boost?

[Banshee]

I'm running 93 octane.

Did not drop the exhaust. I'm at 8.5# of boost at max. 5-6# when I floor it at 4K rpm.

This is the vvt Mod:
http://brpforum.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/8/1/2/8121095222/8121095222_VVT_Adjustment.pdf?ts=445BF1A7&key=C71968A0DC881F755E0B55CE11969B6E&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fbrpforum.infopop.cc%2Fgroupe e%2Fforums%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F9121095222%2FVVT_Adjust ment.pdf

[Banshee]

Why do you think the SC porting is a bad idea?

I may end up buying a midpipe. I just would hate to keep throwing money at the situation without knowing what the true problem is.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Because I think Eaton knows more about MP62 flow than BRP does. I have a strong feeling that the 'porting' might lose WHP rather than increase it.

The 95mm pulley should make about 6-7 PSI and the 100mm pulley should make about 7-8.5 and the 105 should make about 10. Either you have a 100mm pulley or a stuffed up exhaust.

What I have seen is that if boost is above expected and horsepower is below expected and you have ping, a plugged exhaust is a high possibility. The hot air simply can't get out of the cylinder fast enough. I wonder if the "VVT mod" might not screw up the exhaust as well?

[Banshee]

Well, I guess that does it, I'm going to get a mid pipe.

There were no changes in boost when I did the vvt. Got the same boost before and after the vvt tweak.

[Banshee]

mufflers don't really get stuffed up right? Its the midpipe that usually need replacing correct?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

mufflers don't really get stuffed up right? Its the midpipe that usually need replacing correct?

Well, this is my story and I'm sticking to it. :lol:

There I was out canyon carvingwith the Sahauro Miata Club here in Phoenix. Up and down the mountains and curve cutting way beyond intelligent for my worn out Dunlops but still having a ball. :) I kept hearing this rattle from time to time that sounded like it was coming from my RoadsterSport III. I thought something was broken loose inside of it. Finally we stopped for lunch and the driver of the car behind me said "Did you know your muffler was chucking black rocks at me?". I told him I had no idea. Well, as it turned out, my FM mid-pipe had disintegrated and stuffed up the muffler and, when pressure got high enough, shot the pieces out the back like a rifle.

IOW, yes, it is possibl;e to stuff up the muffler. It was bad enough that rich fuel would collect and then, all of a sudden under boost, a black cloud would errupt and make everything out back disappear. I knew something was amiss when I saw 15PSI boost but just thought maybe it had something to do with the altitude. I am now both older and wiser. Lyle's 99 and Pat's 99 taught me a lesson about exhaust. If the boost is high and the power is low and it pings, something is probably stuffed in the exhaust.

[Banshee]

Midpipe here I come.

But first I'm going to do a compression check.

On a 01, do I just remove the 2 plugs connecting the sparkplug wires?

Also, where is the fuel relay?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The FP relay is under the dash just to the right of the steering column.

http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/FuelPumpRelay.jpg

[Banshee]

Just did a compression check
dry
1-165
2-180
3-175
4-175

wet
1-170
2-190
3-190
4-185

Also checked my wiring with an ohm meter, and everything checked out.
sparks plug are even and tan, the threads are black.

are these number ok? What do they mean?

[Banshee]

I forgot to depress the gas pedal during the compression test, so that could effect the results, I'll go back and redo them later on this week.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

#1 cylinder looks a little off as compared to the others but the others look fine.

How could anybody with a coldside ever forget to depress the gas pedal? :)

[Banshee]

Good news, I rechecked the compression, this time remembering to depress the gas pedal, and I'm getting 180-185 psi on all cyclinders. Looks much better.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Any chance you might be anywhere near Phoenix this summer? I would really like a look at your car.

The pool is REAL warm and you could stay at Club Tom. Ari might even let you stay in his room. ;)

[Banshee]

I live in Houston, so it's pretty far from Pheonix. Believe me, it would of been much easier to take you up on your e-cool upgrade offer.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Houston is just a nice day trip from here. ;)

[Banshee]

Tom, I would like to visit Pheonix, got cousins there, but We're expecting our first little one in July, don't think the wife would look too kindly on a road trip at that time.


I just readjusted the vvt again today.

I initially did 1mm, and got ping in the 6K+ 4th gear run.

Bill suggested that I adjust it another 1mm.

I did that today, I have more power in the SOTP feel, but now I ping in 3rd gear runs at 6.5k and above. Never had ping in 3rd gear before.

I don't doubt that the car makes more power because the timing is advanced, but I don't think it help with ping resistance, and may actually hurt ping supression.

Anyone else done testing before and after vvt adjustment?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I think that saves me from the effort of trying that change. I was going to but hadn't yet. I wonder if it would help going the other direction? With my 05, the only time I have any detonation at the upper revs (105mm pulley and 192WHP) on 91 octane is with the AC on and a hot (above 90F) day. On 93 octane, I don't have a problem until above 100F with the AC on and, even above 100F, there is no problem if the AC is off. The main reason for ping, I think, is engine heat. If the engine temp gets way up there, it is hard to stop ping on any of them but the 01-05, with 10:1 CR, is the worst. Second major problem is a stuffed exhaust. The incoming air has to push the old hot air out and, if the exhaust is not flowing, that is a problem. Third, of course, is cooling the incoming charge. E-Cool seems to do that quite well but, no matter how well you cool the incoming charge, if you can't get the old hot air out or the engine is just too hot to start, it is a challenge.

[Kyp J]

Tom and Banshee

As I explained to Banshee on a PM (I think it was him, I also got some PMs from Mathrips) I did a pressure test of my exhaust because I thought plugged exhaust was my problem. I got less than 1 pound of pressure in front of the cat to ambient which followed what a local performance shop said it should be. This was with a steady 3000 RPM with no load and saw slight bumps in pressure if I goosed it but it would settle back below 1 even at a higher RPM. I have seen forum entries on Mnet that folks have seen 3 to 5 or higher pressures.

I'm sure I have low power but I also have low compression and damaged pistons/rings/cylinders.

I haven't done the VVT adjustment nor had the porting done. I may have incurred the damage when my fueling was cutting out for unknown reasons under boost and had nothing to do with the over heating at the track.

The explanation I got from Bill, if I understood it correctly, was that when the 01+ sees knock, it pulls back on the intake timing to essentially reduce power via not enough volume sucked in due to shorter valve duration. Ignition timing is unaffected at that point. That is stock. With the blower, the shorter duration is cancelled by the pressurized fuel/air charge and very little change in power is experienced thus not stopping ping, but maybe enhancing it. This may explain why Banshee's and my boost is higher than expected (the short intake duration). I don't understand the VVT position change except it lies to the ECM and it thinks it is already retarded.

I also haven't gotten a dyno because the fueling problem showed up on the way to the dyno, but based on performance at the track it wasn't a powerhouse.

I took the head and block to a performance shop today to be evaluated and get some recommendations on mods and repairs. I will let you know when I find out exactly the damage.

My question in all this is: Is there a way to be informed by the (PCM, ECM, ECU whatever it is called) that ping is occuring. Like with a light or email or something? I am sure I had detonation that caused the damage but I never heard it. I may not be able to hear it since my hearing is so bad. I have seen mention of all these expensive devices that pull timing etc. but just knowing when it is occuring would help. The knock sensor is telling the ECM, right?

Kyp J

[Banshee]

Kyp is one of the reason that I'm not convince my exhaust is stopped up, we're seeing the same boost with same setup, and he's at a much higher elevation than I am.

I think that the 95mm pulley may just be too much for a stock 01+ without any type of cooling. I think at this point, I have a couple of options. 1) get a water injection kit, 2) get the e-cool system, 3) get a J&S timing system 4) try a midpipe/exhaust set up.

Number 2 actually will probally be the least expensive set up, and the one proven to work. I just got a Thompson oil filter relocation kit installed, and I'm not looking forward to taking apart the supercharger to install it.

I really like the stock exhaust, and really don't want to pluck down a chunk a change for something that may not work eliminate my ping.

A J&S system is a strong possibility. I'm going to E-mail Brant and see if he'll give me credit toward a J&S system if I don't get the port and polish.

[Kyp J]

I put on the Thompson relocation kit at the same time as the SC install. They both interfere with each other and I don't think it would matter a lot if the SC was already on. You would have to remove the splash pan and the support strut for the intake Manifold while on jack stands and go into the wheel well and underneath. The stiff hoses are a bitch to screw into the housing that replaces the oil filter. Then they don't have much room to squeeze by the fuel tubes and AC junk on the wheel well.

With all that interference, the recommended screw down location wouldn't work. I had to use sheet metal screws wherever it ended up to accomodate the hoses. (Inch or so from normal location).

[Banshee]

Tom,

How much is your E-cool kit for previous BRP coldside owners? No power card required.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I sell it at $500 as that is actually below my cost. SS, Spacer and 550cc Injector. It is for 99+. The 94-97 has a 1/2" spacer and the injector won't fit. For 94-97 the best is the SS and the injector pre-blower. Extra fuel but no cooling. However, the 94-97 with 9:1 CR is pretty forgiving as seen by Dan's 307WHP. Then you need a larger pulley. 105mm is recommended.

[Banshee]

Thx Tom,

I got to check with the appropiation committtee. Pretty much I got a one shot deal to fix my ping issue and not just mask it.

[Kyp J]

Banshee

In case you don't see it on the "other" forum, I got a verification for my theory (sort of) about boost pressures and VVT. I think you said you adjusted yours and didn't see any change in boost? If that is the case, then I'm not sure the adjustment is really doing anything in the long run.

Quote:"It's actually the intake valves late closing, but yes, it will cause higher indicated boost since the VE of the engine is drastically reduced.

Brant"

[Banshee]

I did a few runs today up to 100 mph in 4th gear, I now see .25# less boost than before the adjustment. Unfortuanetly I still have ping after 6.5k rpm. Very frustrating.

I was looking at my dyno graph (Torque curve in particular) and comparing it to all the other coldside runs, and I think that I'm getting inaudiable ping at 5krpm. The reason is that I have a very flat torque curve up to 5k. Then it starts to decline more than the other coldsides. I think the cpu is pulling timing at that point.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Nothing a little e-cool and extra fuel wouldn't cure. :)

[Kyp J]

I did a few runs today up to 100 mph in 4th gear, I now see .25# less boost than before the adjustment. Unfortuanetly I still have pin after 6.5k rpm. Very frustrating.

I was looking at my dyno graph (Torque curve in particular) and comparing it to all the other coldside runs, and I think that I'm getting inaudiable ping at 5krpm. The reason is that I have a very flat torque curve up to 5k. Then it starts to decline more than the other coldsides. I think the cpu is pulling timing at that point.

So you do see lower boost after the VVT adjust? Isn't the torque drop what they attribute to VVT? I don't remember at this moment what your pre adjust dyno looked like, but if different, maybe the VVT just messed it up a little later.

Keep checking your compression occasionally if you are continuing to get ping. I never actually heard ping (maybe due to my bad hearing) but had drastic loss of compression. Don't know what exactly did it.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Then it starts to decline more than the other coldsides. I think the cpu is pulling timing at that point.

Are you sure your fuel is not tapering off. Maybe 12:1 going towards 12.5:1? I know it costs a few WHP but I think the engine is a lot happier at 11.5 to 12 than above 12. I would galdly trade a few WHP for a happy engine. A lot of guys will tune an engine for every last bragging HP they can get. I prefer to stay on the rich side.

[Banshee]

On the dyno's wideband tail pipe sniffer, I get 12.5-at 5K rpm

11.5 at 5.5k rpm to 12.5 at redline. Since then, I richened it up to 12.0 at redline. Still get ping.

Obviously you're a little bias, but given my situation, what would you do to solve my ping issue.

1)J&S knock system
2)E-Cool
3)Water injection
4)Midpipe

All are going to be in the $400-500 range.[/img]

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I think your fuel is on the lean side. I would love to see it under 12 from 5K to 7K.

1) I had a J&S knock controller and wasn't happy. However, I had the PNP at the time and it was found to be defective AFTER I pulled and disposed of the J&S so ??? I dropped one of the FM timing wheels (under $30) on the 05 for a test and found that it drop 1 WHP so that is an alternative. I took it back off as I wanted the 05 stock for CARB.

2) Anything that cools the charge is an asset. Adding fuel is an added benefit of the e-cool.

3) I just ran out of water on a hot day canyon carving and it scared me. I would not do it again unless I had a low tank indicator.

4) I think a good high flow midpipe is a really good thing.

5) You didn't mention a good radiator like the PWR 55mm. If I could only have one thing, it might be just that. Heat is the real issue here and oil coolers and bigger radiators with high flow fans are a real asset. I hear the "My engine didn't ping at 90F but it does at 105F". 15F isn't that important to intake charge but can be a real issue to engine heat. Sadly, the temp gauge on the MIata is a poor indicator. Grab a real tem gauge and watch what your engine REALLY does while that cute gauge sits there at 12:00.

[Banshee]

You still don't have the J&S do you?

It's 80 degrees here in Houston today, and on the first run of the day, I got ping at the top of 3rd gear. This is with an a/f of <12 at redline.

While I don't doubt that a larger radiator or oil cooler will provide a benefit, I don't think it will eliminate my pinging.

A high flow midpipe is a possibility, but I really don't want the increase noise associated with it. Also, I don't know how much it would help if my stocker is not clogged.

I'll probally take you up on the e-cool offer, but I just can't bear to take apart the supercharger right now. It was a bear to install and now with an oil filter relocation kit, it will be even worst.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

J&S is long gone.

What grade of fuel are you running? 80 degrees and 92 or better should have no ping. If you can add another touch of fuel, try it. I still like under 12 at redline. BTW, out here and under 80F I have no ping with the 05 on AZ91.

If you use the stock muffler with the high flow midpipe, it is relatively quiet until you go WOT. At cruise on the highway you barely know it is there.

The aftermarket version of the e-cool simply requires removing the upper half of the kit (SC, spacer and plate) by removal of the 8 or so screws around the perimeter of the plate and the 4 long bolts from below. You do have to move the alternator to get to the 4th bolt. Not as bad as a install from scratch.then you remove the old spacer and install the new one and re-assemble. I have a straight pipe (RB) on the 99 now and the stock muffler and it is so quiet the radio is still easy to listen to without turning it up too high at 80 on the freeway. The old tires were a lot louder than the exhaust. The new T1Rs are quiet as can be too so cruising is a pleasure. Even when you get on it hard, it is reminiscent of a Tr6 or MGB. Just a note. All the Mustang driver really hears is the whine of the MP62 as I roll past. :)