Review of PC Pro on an 02 BRP hotside

[Silverstreak02]

The PC Pro is a new product offered by Tom at FFS. It provides a means to accurately control fuel. I’ve had it for about three weeks now and would like to share my experience.

Initial set up
I have a BRP MP62 hot side supercharger on my 2002 Miata. My base non-intercooled kit was installed in October 2005. It came with a 100/65mm pulley and puts out 6 psi of boost. Fuel was originally controlled by a JR Power Card. I added an air/water intercooler, J&S Safe Guard, VVT tweak, AEM wideband and a boost gauge.

Installation
The PC Pro came attached to a plug and play harness. Installation required removing three connectors from the ECU and installing the harness between the ECU and original connectors. The vacuum connection uses the same diameter plastic tubing that came with the BRP kit and included a “Y” connector for my boost gauge. After everything was connected it’s stored in the fuse box area.

Adjustments
The PC Pro is accessed by opening the fuse box door and pulling it out. There is enough spare wire to easily adjust the unit, but not enough to get in the way while driving.
It uses a mode selector and + and – buttons to adjust the fuel. You use the mode selector to select an RPM range and the + and – buttons to add or subtract fuel. It also has the ability to add or subtract fuel across the entire range at once. This is very easy to do, but probably best done at the dyno. I did some preliminary adjustments on mine using the wide band.

Dyno comparison
The last dyno run on the car with the power card produced 163 HP and 143 lbs of torque with an AFR off scale at 10:1 for most of the rpm range. The same setup using the PC Pro produced 181 HP and 160 lbs of torque with a 12:1 AFR. The runs were done on the same dyno and SAE corrected.

Driving impressions
The car started immediately after the installation and idled normally. When I go into boost the AFR goes to around 12:1 verses the 10:1 I was getting with the original PC. It’s hard to describe the effects proper fueling has on drivability until you experience it. With the old PC the engine would accelerate to redline quickly, but it did it with a certain roughness and hesitation. I thought all the noise and fuss was a normal part of the supercharger experience. The PC Pro eliminates all that. The acceleration is smooth and effortless now. The initial hesitation followed by a kick of power is replaced by a steady increase in power that pulls smoothly all the way to red line. If it wasn’t for the sound of the K&N and blower I’d swear Mazda has a V6 option. I can now drive my car without constantly monitoring the idle dip and listening for ping. This is the first time in over a year I’ve felt comfortable with this setup.


Conclusion

The PC Pro has operated flawlessly and provides proper AFR in all rpm ranges. The benefit is a car that operates the way Mazda delivered it, but with a lot more power.

[pumpkin]

That is a great result. Did you tune it then go to the dyno, or did you tune it while at the dyno.
Also, your PC seemed to be extremely rich. Did you have the +10% chip in by any chance?
JD (same setup).

[Silverstreak02]

Pumpkin

I did an initial tune using my wide band, but the final tuning was done on the dyno. The power card had the standard chip in it.

Jeff

[dazooom]

Jeff....That's a great review! You provided a lot of information, especially for us 01+ F/I Miata owners. My PC Pro will be here shortly, and after having my slippin, Mazdaspeed clutch changed out, and dropping down to a 130mm pulley, I'll post the dyno on mine.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Fantastic improvement... so glad your pinging headaches have been cured finally. Sorry I couldn't help you like this when I worked at BRP. The PC Pro is a revolutionary improvement. Now you probably will be able to get to 200rwhp fairly easily with a pulley change.

Tom, you mentioned going to BKR8EIX spark plugs. That is one heat range hotter than stock... as opposed to the BKR6E being one heat range colder. I thought with a boosted engine it is better to run colder plugs than stock? Do you think I would reduce pinging on my setup by going with the BKR8EIX? Or is it something you specifically use on the '01+ setups?

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Bill,

BKR5E is stock. BKR6E is one range colder. For the 94-00 I use BKR7EIX (Iridium). For the 01-05, I use BKR8EIX. The center electrode is 1/2 the diameter and 1/4 the mass. It heats fast and cools fast. So it is not a source of ignition until it is told to spark. They also come pre-gapped at 0.028". One less source of unwanted ignition.

Smooth driving was his goal. The extra 20 WHP was a bonus. ;)

[Scuba Steve]

....Driving impressions
The car started immediately after the installation and idled normally. ... I can now drive my car without constantly monitoring the idle dip and listening for ping. This is the first time in over a year I’ve felt comfortable with this setup.


Are you saying you had idle dip issues before the PcPro and do not have them now? While I can manage my idle dip, it is there and is one of the more disappointing parts of my SC install. If this improves idle dip it would be frosting on the cake.

[Silverstreak02]

Fantastic improvement... so glad your pinging headaches have been cured finally. Sorry I couldn't help you like this when I worked at BRP. The PC Pro is a revolutionary improvement. Now you probably will be able to get to 200rwhp fairly easily with a pulley change.


Bill

Bill

I've had well over a year of headaches with my BRP kit and the thought of changing anything is too much right now. I may eventually change my mind, but for now I'm going to enjoy my troublefree 180 whp. I believe the PCPro is the answer to the short comings of the BRP hotside.

Jeff

[FormerDatsun510Man]

My experience is that yes the PC Pro eliminates idle dip :). I notice that when I let off the throttle one of the lights on the PC Pro blinks. Is the PC Pro doing something when this occurs? :)

Ooops, that's right a BKR5 is stock and 8 is three ranges colder. I might have to try these plugs out and go ahead and stick the 130mm pulley on there after all :).

Bill

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

A lot of idle dip/hang comes from LTFT/STFT. The PC-Pro all but eliminates that problem. That greatly reduces, if not eliminates the problem.

[Silverstreak02]

Are you saying you had idle dip issues before the PcPro and do not have them now? While I can manage my idle dip, it is there and is one of the more disappointing parts of my SC install. If this improves idle dip it would be frosting on the cake.

Scuba Steve

My idle dip issues were pretty bad. The adjustments only helped prevent stalling about half the time, but didn't help with dip down to 500rpm. It happened so often I found myself looking at the tachometer whenever I came to a stop. It really ruined the drive. The dip is completely gone with the air conditioning turned off. The only way I can get dip is with the air conditioning on, and heavy acceleration when it's still cold. It doesn't stall, but will dip to 700 rpm. Once the car is warmed up it doesn't matter what I do it doesn't dip. This was a benefit I wasn't expecting, but has increased my driving pleasure greatly. I'd say it's time for cake.

Jeff

[Serpico]

I have yet to have any idle droop once the engine is fully warmed up... :)

Silverstreak02, What settings did you end up with on the PC-Pro?

Nice review BTW and congrats!

[Scuba Steve]

Scuba Steve

My idle dip issues were pretty bad. The adjustments only helped prevent stalling about half the time, but didn't help with dip down to 500rpm. It happened so often I found myself looking at the tachometer whenever I came to a stop. It really ruined the drive. The dip is completely gone with the air conditioning turned off. The only way I can get dip is with the air conditioning on, and heavy acceleration when it's still cold. It doesn't stall, but will dip to 700 rpm. Once the car is warmed up it doesn't matter what I do it doesn't dip. This was a benefit I wasn't expecting, but has increased my driving pleasure greatly. I'd say it's time for cake.

Jeff

I hope you guys are not raising my expectations too high. My reason for wanting the PcPro is my ELF A/F was around 13:1 on the dyno which is acceptable since I have no ping. I would be happier with 12.5:1 and figured the PcPro would get me there.

If it helps with idle dip too, I will be happy as a [insert phrase here] :grouphug:

I realize if you are running too rich, you can increase hp by having a better a/f ratio as happened to silverstreak. Can I expect to see a slight reduction in HP if I go slightly richer 12.5:1 instead of 13:1? I have no problem with this, just curious.

[Silverstreak02]

I have yet to have any idle droop once the engine is fully warmed up... :)

Silverstreak02, What settings did you end up with on the PC-Pro?

Nice review BTW and congrats!

Serpico

Green 2
Yellow 6,7
Red 4,5
Yellow/Blue 8
Red/Blue 8

Jeff

[FormerDatsun510Man]

I hope you guys are not raising my expectations too high. My reason for wanting the PcPro is my ELF A/F was around 13:1 on the dyno which is acceptable since I have no ping. I would be happier with 12.5:1 and figured the PcPro would get me there.

If it helps with idle dip too, I will be happy as a [insert phrase here] :grouphug:

I realize if you are running too rich, you can increase hp by having a better a/f ratio as happened to silverstreak. Can I expect to see a slight reduction in HP if I go slightly richer 12.5:1 instead of 13:1? I have no problem with this, just curious.


My experience on the dyno was that getting the a/f ratio smoothed out at low and mid rpm improved high rpm rwhp even if the high rpm a/f ratio didn't change. It was interesting watching a chain reaction from getting the a/f ratio sorted out. I wouldn't expect hardly any difference in rwhp at 12.5:1 vs 13:1... maybe 2-3rwhp at the most. However, if you aren't running an extra injector the 13:1 a/f ratio you are seeing right now may be limited by the stock injectors at high rpm. I'd still get the PC Pro though ;). Then add an extra injector later. Since I have a nearly identical setup I can tell you that you probably are running out of stock injector and will need an extra injector to run more pulley.

Bill

[Serpico]

Thanks!

I unplugged my fifth injector a few weeks ago and found that I was still able to maintain a 12.5:1 A/F with the main injectors. Here's where I ended up with the PC-Pro settings.

Green-Zero
Yellow-5
Red-4&5
Yellow/Blue-8
Red/Blue-8

pretty darn close to yours.....

I now have the fifth injector plugged back in and lowered my PC-Pro's settings to :

Green-0
Yellow-0
Red-0
Y/B-8
R/B-8

A/F is now right at 12:1 @ redline! It sure is nice to be able to fine tune like this.... :)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

SilverStreak had to add a lot of fule to each of the zones, not because he was running out of injector but because he is only 5-6PSI. He is so far down the slope that the number have to get big for it to get much fuel. If he ups the boost (Bigger pulleys are fun :)), he will probably actually turn the numbers back down as he will be into the curve I have pre-set. All of the other systems so far have been in the 8-15 PSI range.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Ya know, I just went back and looked at that dyno graph. That is an amazingly flat A/F curve. When you get the BKR8EIX plugs in there, I'll bet you can lean that out another 1/2 point and pick up 3-5 more WHP.

[Esprit]

Hi guys, hi Tom,
first post here for me and i have a question to make.
Does the PC pro work with RC 310mm injectors that replaced my stock ones?
Thanks,
Dimitris

[Banshee]

Hi guys, hi Tom,
first post here for me and i have a question to make.
Does the PC pro work with RC 310mm injectors that replaced my stock ones?
Thanks,
Dimitris

should work fine, but you should ask Tom to load a program that's a little leaner than usual, since you have bigger injectors to compensate.

[J_Man]

My experience on the dyno was that getting the a/f ratio smoothed out at low and mid rpm improved high rpm rwhp even if the high rpm a/f ratio didn't change. It was interesting watching a chain reaction from getting the a/f ratio sorted out.

Was that on a Dynojet or on a real dyno? The Dynojets use that big roller which you spin and there is no force applied back from the dyno. The rate of spinning the roller at low rpm can affect the calculations at higher rpm.

A good solution - forget about Dynojets & find a shop with a real dyno - i.e. a Dynapack which attaches to the hubs and doesn't rely on the inertia from big drums (it even bypasses the tires so tire spin won't affect your tuning, and is the closest thing to an real engine dyno). Then tweak the low rpm power and check if it changes in any way the high rpm power ;)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The real question is "will the stock ECU work well with 310cc injectors?". The PC-Pro does nothing off boost so the stock ECU has to be able to compensate for them. On boost, the stock ECU goes to the lookup tables and will probably add too much fuel. Then the question is, how much fuel does it add? Is it enough to make what you need without additional fuel. If so, no fuel card will do you any good.

Are you up in the 250-300 WHP range? Is that why you upped the injector size? If so, the stock ECU will not add enough fuel and the PC-Pro will easily work.


Hi guys, hi Tom,
first post here for me and i have a question to make.
Does the PC pro work with RC 310mm injectors that replaced my stock ones?
Thanks,
Dimitris

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yea Bill. You need to find a 'real' dyno. :)

[FormerDatsun510Man]

I thought it was a real dyno?

[J_Man]

I thought it was a real dyno?

Not quite compared to let's say a Dynapack. Go to a shop which has one and you'll see the light ... :biggrin: Being able to keep the engine at particular rpm/load points is priceless. Plus you don't have a 3000 lbs drum which you spin in a single pull and then try to estimate what was your dyno/torque numbers over the rpms. You get instant hp/tq readings any moment any rpm, any load - perfect for finding MBT.

I can bet that you won't find any car manifacturer or serious race team tuning their engines on inertial dyno ...

[J_Man]

Speaking of dynos. I always drool over this video. The Renault F1 engine put on a dyno simulating racetrack laps, it simulates the loads as if the engine is in the car and lapping Monza:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_QyUD6V5_I

:biggrin:

Of course this particular machine is $$$$$$$$$, so it needs a F1 budget :)

[Esprit]

The real question is "will the stock ECU work well with 310cc injectors?". The PC-Pro does nothing off boost so the stock ECU has to be able to compensate for them. On boost, the stock ECU goes to the lookup tables and will probably add too much fuel. Then the question is, how much fuel does it add? Is it enough to make what you need without additional fuel. If so, no fuel card will do you any good.

Are you up in the 250-300 WHP range? Is that why you upped the injector size? If so, the stock ECU will not add enough fuel and the PC-Pro will easily work.

I am not so high Tom, propably i am in the 220-230 rwhp range at 11psi max at the redline. I switched at the bigger injectors because with the 110/65 combo i was a little lean in the redline. After installing the 310s i was so rich that had to go up to the 120/65 pulleys. But even now i feel (i say i feel because right now my zeitronix wideband is broken) i am rich again and thats why i am wondering if with the new PC pro i can make some adjustments to take off some fuel in certain rpm range or generally some fine tuning to my a/f.
Thanks,
Dimitris / Greece

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I would guess that the ECU would be able to compensate for the 310ccc injectors off boost. The PC-Pro would easily take care of them on boost.

[Maz]

LTFT/STFT ??? Please explaine. I am learning, but this I do not know.

Also, I am interested in the PC Pro, what with all the wonderful things said about it. I presently have the Power card (Jackson Racing?) that came with my BRP stage 1. The PC Pro doesn't seen like a direct replacement, is it. If I remember, the card is behind the glove box, and the adjusting control module is inside the glove box. People here talk the PC pro is below the dash, driver side. Also, I do have the plug-n-play adapter for my Power Card. Is that usable with the PC Pro?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Long Term Fuel Trim and Short Term Fuel Trim.

When the engine goes into boost and the ECU sees that there is extra fuel but doesn't know where it came from, it tries to trim it out by subtracting fuel from the main injectors. When the engine tries to go back to idle, it first checks the look up tables to see what the target fuel should be then adds (subtracts) the trim from that number. That typically leads to idle droop that recovers. As soon as the idle starts to settle down, the ECU goes closed loop again and adjusts fuel for by MAF and O2 and TPS. (Mass Air Flow, Oxygen sensor and Throttle Position Sensor).

Sorry, sometimes we get caught up in 'shorthand' and forget that a LOT of people don't catch it.

[zoom2xtn]

My Toyota mechanic, who had never worked on a Miata, installed my PCPro today. The BRP unit was taken out and the PCPro installed in it's place. (I don't know if the unit removed is an Elf or not but it's a BRP labeled blue box with lots of blue wires coming out of one side and going to 3 white connectors, with built-in connectors (receptacles) on 2 sides. On one side there are 3 separate green connectors -- 1 for 12V, Grnd, and O2, another for 12V, Grnd and Tach and a long one with all sorts of inputs, including all the above, I think) The other side had white receptacles.

It took over 2 hours. First it took some time to find the connectors. He had to look up the location (left of steering wheel, behind the lower dash) on some online, subscription Miata manuals.

BRP had put a plug on the wires coming from my Simple Digital Systems Air/Fuel Ratio gauge which plug plugged into the above mentioned 12V, Grnd, and O2 receptacle the BRP box(I think). After calling Tom (Thanks, Tom) he got my SDS AFR working again by soldering the 3 wires to the ones Tom told him to use on the PCPro wiring harness.

I did not have time to wait for him to find a 12V, switched wire to use for my hard-wired Valentine One. He could not easily get to the cigaret lighter wire. I did not want him to start taking things apart to try and get to it since he had never seen a Miata. BRP had it (12V switched and Grnd) hooked to a plug which plugged into the above mentioned green recepatacle on the blue box, not using the tach pin.

http://www.valentine1.com/

Where can I easily get 12V switched for my Valentine One under the left side of the dash? And where can he find 12V, Grnd, and Tach to wire up my shift light?

http://www.raptorperformance.com/index.html

Thanks. While I still had idle droop, it is not as bad as it has been and I expect it to get better as I drive my Miata over the next few weeks.

I'll have him install the FFS auto-tensioner on Wednesday 05/01/2007. Since I presently have the BRP adjustible tensioner now, I can use the same SC belt, right?

Lee

[Silverstreak02]

Lee
The BRP plug in box could have been left in place allowing all of your extra stuff to stay connected. I also have that box and a PCPro. All you needed to do was remove the old PC from the inside of the BRP box and install the PCPro inline with the box. You may want to consider it. but I guess what's done is done. The install shouldn't take more than twenty minutes.

Jeff

[zoom2xtn]

Jeff

If you had been here you would have been a big help. I'm clueless and didn't even know where the BRP blue box was located. After looking up a Miata Manual online Brian, one my two Toyota mechanics, took off the lower dash panel below the steering column and got started. All told, it was over 2 hours since he soldered in the SDS A/F Ratio gauge wires after calling Tom for directions on which wires to tap. I've got to get these guys up to speed on Miatas but I can't afford to do all the training! I still don't have the Valentine One wired up yet.

Anyone--

WHERE, UNDER THE DRIVERS SIDE DASH, DO I FIND A SWITCHED, +12V WIRE WITH ENOUGH EXTRA CAPACITY TO TAP INTO FOR MY VALENTINE ONE (WHICH USES VERY LITTLE AMPS, I'M SURE) ??

WHEN YOU TELL ME REMEMBER I NEED THIRD-GRADE INSTRUCTIONS.

TIA

Lee

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Grab the red wire on the PC-Pro.

[zoom2xtn]

Tom

Thanks again. He started to add the Valentine One to that PCPro red wire but was reluctant to add any more draw on that skinny wire and wanted a different source but i'll have him go for it today.

I still need to hook up the shift light. Is it OK to just add it to the PCPro wiring harness? It uses +12V, Ground, and Tach, all of which, I think, are in your harness. OK to just tap in (solder, not vampire) to them?

Lee