5th injector port

[Banshee]

Tom,
Would it be possible to make an adapter to use water injection in the 5th injector port? I'm planning to use both pre and post blower WI.

Speaking of the post blower WI port, is that the best location for even distribution? Would it of been better in the E-Cool spot?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

All you have to do is drill and tap the 5th injector plug to 8mm x .75. I don't think the spray distribution is too critical pre-blower as it is all mixed in the blower anyhow. Just remember, you are not doing much air cooling pre-blower. Just making humid air to become hot humid air after it exits the blower. Post blower gets the most cooling of the charge air.

On the mnet thread, someone mentioned that it helps cool the blower. Picture a few drops of water on 20 pounds of hot aluminum. The blower doesn't cool, the water simply gets hot. Also mentioned was the increase of sealing on the rotors. If true, that would make more boost. You really don't need more boost (easily obtained by a larger pulley anyhow), you need a cooler charge.

If you don't have the resources to do the drill/tap, let me know. It wouldn't be cheap to do a 'one of' at the shop but I could do it.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It would look something like this. If you want to do it locally, I can send you the drawing.

Http://www.FastForwardSuperchargers.com/BTBA-Plug.htm

[chuckerants]

On a hotside, one could drill and tap anywhere after the blower correct? For example, anywhere along the crossover tube?

[Banshee]

It would look something like this. If you want to do it locally, I can send you the drawing.

Http://www.FastForwardSuperchargers.com/BTBA-Plug.htm

How much do you think this would cost to do a one off? Could you do it so that the plug have threads so that it could just screw into the 5th injector port?

I would prefer to use the post injector WI port, but I'm concern with the distribution of the water. What's your take on that?

[JTod]

On a hotside, one could drill and tap anywhere after the blower correct? For example, anywhere along the crossover tube?

I had a 2003 with a MP62 hotside and tapped the blower outlet. Theory being that the water has a longer period of time to atomize and cool the hot air. Worked pretty well, noticeable difference in temp from one end of the crossover tube to the other. If you look at the pic full size you can see the W/I nozzle and the right angle fitting. I ran the water supply line through the hollow strut tower brace to clean up the install a little.

Also modified a Canada spec windshield washer bottle and bracket to gain about 150% more water capacity than stock. I still have the bottle and bracket and would sell it to anyone interested for $25 and shipping.



http://upload4.postimage.org/233695/SC.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/233695/photo_hosting.html)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It would look something like this. If you want to do it locally, I can send you the drawing.

Http://www.FastForwardSuperchargers.com/BTBA-Plug.htm

How much do you think this would cost to do a one off? Could you do it so that the plug have threads so that it could just screw into the 5th injector port?

I would prefer to use the post injector WI port, but I'm concern with the distribution of the water. What's your take on that?

That plug does have threads. Basically it is the same bolt that we use for the plug on the TBA you have now. 5/8-18 x 0.5 counterbored to move the water nozzle as close to the air stream as possible and then drilled and tapped 8 mm x 0.75. I would not be surprised to see it cost $50 or so. The shop is not cheap on 'one-of' parts as they setup time is so much.

I tried WI pre and post blower and, after a LOT of tests and dynos, found the post blower to be night and day ahead of pre-blower so I made the inlet in the IM. I then tried pre-blower on the fuel injector and post blower. I found, after many dyno runs and temperature measurements, that post blower was far superior so I went through all the expense to move the injector fron pre-blower to post-blower. My opinion is that water pre-blower gets you the same anti-knock benefit as post blower (water doesn't burn) but it offers little or no cooling to the charge temperature. WI post blower does both quite well.

Think of it this way. Pre blower, you are injecting ambient water into ambient air. The cooling effect is zero. You then send this very humid air through a very hot blower. The very humid air then becomes very hot humid air. Somewhat less humid because relative humidity is inversly proportional to temperature. As water is a much better thermal conductor than air, this hot humid air is now storing a lot of BTUs from the blower that you really don't want. Conversly, if you inject the water post blower you have hot air (roughly the same temperature as the hot humid air) but it has very few BTUs stored because air has very low thermal capacity. Now you inject that same ambient temperature water into into that hot air and thw water instantly evaoprates (latent heat of evaporation takes place) and voila, the air charge is a lot cooler (near ambient if you put enough water in) and has a whole lot BTUs stored. Latent heat of vaporization and the thermal capacity of the liquids/gasses in play have to be studied to understand why.

Of course there is the other side of the story as expounded on mnet "I feel it works better pre-blower" or, better yet, "I know it works better pre-blower". It is hard for me to compete with that. ;)

[Banshee]

Alright Tom, I'm convince, I'll only go post blower. Is the WI port the best place to inject or would it be better to go straight to E-Cool? I don't plan on tracking the car, just running through the gears on the street.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

well, I have two answers to that. If you alrready have enough fuel for the power/pulley you are using, I would probably do water. If you don't have enough fuel, water doesn't burn well. :) The cooling efficiency difference between water and fuel is relatively inconsequential. Water has higher thermal capacity but fuel evaporates easier.

[ThomS]

On a hotside, one could drill and tap anywhere after the blower correct? For example, anywhere along the crossover tube?

I had a 2003 with a MP62 hotside and tapped the blower outlet. Theory being that the water has a longer period of time to atomize and cool the hot air. Worked pretty well, noticeable difference in temp from one end of the crossover tube to the other. If you look at the pic full size you can see the W/I nozzle and the right angle fitting. I ran the water supply line through the hollow strut tower brace to clean up the install a little.

Also modified a Canada spec windshield washer bottle and bracket to gain about 150% more water capacity than stock. I still have the bottle and bracket and would sell it to anyone interested for $25 and shipping.



http://upload4.postimage.org/233695/SC.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/233695/photo_hosting.html)


Very nice looking ENGINE BAY>>>> VERY NICE>

[Mathrips]

This is where I am putting my water injection port. I also added a curved plate to help change the flow direction from the blower. http://upload4.postimage.org/556042/Bafflesin010.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/556042/photo_hosting.html)

[Mathrips]

This is the view with the blower mounting plate in placehttp://upload4.postimage.org/556058/Bafflesin011.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/556058/photo_hosting.html)

[Mathrips]

I also rounded the backside of the top plate, and worked on the runners to get rid of the ridge at the entrance and to get them to curve down and match up with the angle on my 99s ports.http://upload4.postimage.org/556062/Bafflesin006.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/556062/photo_hosting.html)

[Banshee]

Did you dyno it prior to all the hard work? Curious to see how much it'll help.

[Mathrips]

Sorry. It would be nice to know if it helped. Alas, I have tools and a little time but no $ for dynos. Bottom line is that it makes me happy. All those square corners and edges bugged me.

[99mx5]

I rounded some of the edges in the top plate too, but by hand ;) I liked how both the spacer and plate are machined together with a large radius.
The main part I found was opening the ports of the IM to match the head while preserving the angled shape of the port from the IM to the head.

Id only be concerned about having screws inside the IM. If you could use a thicker sheet for the diverter plate and thread into it from the outside, then you could eliminate a potential disaster if a bolt comes loose. I do know that alot of effort was made to avoid having bolts in the IM. If you have to have those bolt heads inside the IM, I would thread them into the bottom of the IM all the way through and put a locknut on the end of the bolt outside of the IM. And use locktite on the bolt and nut.

I thought of making the inside of the IM more rounded with a similar idea, but I was thinking of placing it on the long side of the blower port. It may make more sense to do the corner for a flow diverter.

That is an interesting location for the WI port. It is closer to the flow of the blower exhaust, but is probably just as effective as the blower spacer location. My only reasoning is that the spacer port is closer to the source of the flow and has more volume behind the injection point for evaporation to take place. If that makes sense.

Congrats on the mods. Keep us posted on the results.

[Banshee]

How did you come up with that particular spot for the water injection nozzle?

By the way, do you have your water injection kit yet? If you do, can you do me a huge favor while the intake manifold is out?

If you could install the nozzle in the hole that Tom provided in the intake manifold, and take a picture of the mist pattern, I would greatly appreciate it. That's where my nozzle is, and I'm itching to see if it provide an even spread to the intake ports.

[Banshee]

Tom,

When you were designing the the IM, did you do any flow study to see if these curves in the IM would help the flow? Seems like if you went through the trouble of making the molds, you can make them in any shape you please.

[Ronin]

Mathrips,
I saw your discussion about WI location over on the waterinjection forum with Richard from Aquamist. Why did you decide on one injector instead of two as was suggested?

Tom,
x2 on Banshee's question on flow study; also, how did you choose the WI location?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, there was only one shape that seemed to fit in there and I didn't think that shape was too important as you are stuffing about 300-350 CFM of air into 122 cubic inches (1728 cubic inches in a cubic foot). No matter what the shape, it would be a lot of turbulance. Filleted corners are for strength and not flow. Runners for boost, so I was told, need to be as short as possible and I made the openings to the ports as large as would fit and tapered to the port size. That was to try and get as much laminer flow as possible under the circumstances. That pretty well sums up the shape. The blower needed to sit where it is to make room for the parts between the blower and fuel rail and the pulley needed to line up with the crank pulley and leave as much room as possible for the BTB and 3" hose. That pretty well defined that part.

The spacer was added to form a method to connect the blower to the manifold without having screws or bolts inside the manifold that could come loose and go where they are least wanted.

The water was injected into the side and, because of the high turbulance, didn't seem to matter where si I put it near the middle, front to rear. The fuel was originally to be injected pre-blower and it added the needed fuel but didn't drop the heat so it was moved to where it is now. It found that spot as the most accessable to not hit anything and was close to the outlet of the blower at the same time although I don't think it matters. When it hits the super heated air, it cools it. Again, the turbulance negates the 'where'.

That's pretty much the design story. :)

[Mathrips]

Sorry I can't take a pic of the spray pattern as the manifold and blower are back on as of yesterday. I did check the spray pattern for the water nozzle and it comes out at about 80 degrees full width or 40 degrees on all sides from center.
I originally had a baffle forcing all the flow past the WI but concluded that it hid the #1 port too much. I was going to run tests with dye to see if all ports got equal distrubution but concluded the whole project of building a frame to hold the intake/blower and an electric motor to spin the blower was more than I was up to on that particular day. I also concluded that it would be inconclusive anyway unless I could simulate the valves opening and closing to shut off the other ports and have shockwaves of air bouncing around in there, and I couldn't figure out how to simulate that easily. If I get ambitious I will check egts on the individual cylinders. I didn't like the two water nozzle idea from the WI forum as it assumes flow directly at the ports and we don't have that. I also didn't like the idea of having to use two tiny nozzles. Clogged water injection is a good killer of engines and the smaller the nozzle the more easily it will clog.