Exciting idea

[jikemenkins]

Hey all. I just wanted to highlight a thread over at Miata.net that i have been watching for a few days. I know the title says FM vs. BEGi, but read the entire thread and you will see what it is about. The REALLY good idea is on page 3, look for my username. . . lol.

Hope everyone gets a chance to check it out and think about the idea. All the big name miata FI kits head-to-head.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=239486

Tom, I have to tell ya. . . If this went to GRM and they did a track day/autoX/daily driver type test i think the coldside would be the favorite in its power/price class.

[mageep]

OOOOOOOH. GREAT idea!!!!

:yes:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

That looks like a 'top power' competition. That is for the turbo guys. Coldsides are for the pleasure of driving and 'reasonable' power. Sounds like a fun day though. Hard for a 200WHP Coldside to compete with a 300WHP turbo on a full track. I wouldn't mind seeing Mageep against them on an AX course though. :)

[jikemenkins]

Nooo no no no. but thats the thing. .. look here.

What I would like to see is Grassroots Motorsports Magazine get an identical (same brakes, shocks, etc) representative example car of an entry level Stage One/FM kit, a BEGI kit, a Moss kit, and a FFS kit. Take each car and run them through a good battery of tests, and compare the results.....

And

I think the idea involving GRM is great. If any GRM staff read this thread, i think they will get a pretty good example of what we all wanna see. Put the big dogs of the Miata(everyone's favorite fun car) FI aftermarket to the test. The big name shops provide GRM with examples of their various offerings, put them into 2 or 3 classes depending on price, ease of instal/upkeep or other variables and give the GRM guys some time to autox/drag/daily drive/track time and get their impressions. Obviously the shops would need to agree on a few of the mentioned paramiters such as what year, and how agresivly built(if at all) the motors would be. Perhaps a budget class, a mid grade class, and an all out no limits class? Obviously not everyone would have to feild a car in each class (400hp coldside?)

Equal tires/wheels/suspension in the autox and track times would reveal the charicteristics of the kits.

Im sure the GRM guys could think of more/easier/ all around better ways of evaluating the kits fairly. Lets see it happen FM/Begi/TDR/FFS/Stageone/others + GRM

WOOOOOT!

I hope its not in bad taste to quote one's self.

. . . . . I'm sure that they would jump at doing a story like this, considering how many Grass Roots readers have Miatas. I think that all that would be involved would be getting all of the vendors to agree to participate.

The thing that makes GRM the logical people to do it, is that they are a "performance on a budget" magazine, so they could objectively discern the difference between a 230 whp car that costs $3k more than a 200 whp car. It wouldn't be about raw dyno numbers or ETs, but about value and fun for the buck.

Yes. This is exactly right. Especially the part about "the difference between a 230whp car that costs 3k more thank a 200whp car" I would really like to see this happen now.

After doing some more thinking, the test would be a little more down to earth and "grassroots", if the motor internals had to remain stock and the GRM staff be the ones to install the kits. That would more realisticaly define the kits. Its obvious that a FMII tuned by keith, Jeromy and Bill from FM might run a bit smoother than a first time turbo install. And that goes for all the kits. im not trying to FM bash or anything.

There, in a nut shell, is everything i wanted to highlight. If the test were to happen, i think the coldside would be the GRM pick for best bang for the buck in its power class. Obviously it would out auto-X everything else in its class, and probably be easier to live with as a DD with i think GRM would appreciate

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Could be interesting.

[Race Grandpa]

Could be interesting.


More than interesting - it would be great PR for FFS.

Someone should copy this thread and sent it to GRM.

It really irks me that GRM gives press to Flyin Miata for their "new" SC, which is neither theirs or new.

[mageep]

If Tom is genuinely interested, and Jike hasn't already or isn't going to, I work in PR (as well as Design (!?!?)), so would be happy to frame a story idea to them...

[mageep]

More than interesting - it would be great PR for FFS.

Someone should copy this thread and sent it to GRM.

It really irks me that GRM gives press to Flyin Miata for their "new" SC, which is neither theirs or new.

And don't be surprised. They buy ad space. It's really that simple. Editorial content has MUCH to do with $$ spent in ads. It's not even very subtle when you discuss it with most pubs....

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

And don't be surprised. They buy ad space. It's really that simple. Editorial content has MUCH to do with $$ spent in ads. It's not even very subtle when you discuss it with most pubs....

Yep. That's it in a nutshell.

[Wayne-n-Fla]

And don't be surprised. They buy ad space. It's really that simple. Editorial content has MUCH to do with $$ spent in ads. It's not even very subtle when you discuss it with most pubs....
AND some internet forums like the " pointy boards"

[Race Grandpa]

If I were in Tom's shoes, I would send GRM a press release that describes in detail how the E-COOL system works AND show a comparison of the ratio of $ to WHP gain to the "competitors" units.

If they did not publish it I would :taz:

until they were so sick of me that they would want to hang me :elf: :nono:

Persistance generally wins. :tank:

[socal pat]

...So does the most colorful use of smileys

[Gord96BRG]

And don't be surprised. They buy ad space. It's really that simple.
Well, it's not quite that simple - it doesn't hurt FM that Keith Tanner has written several articles for GRM, independent of his FM hat, so he knows the GRM editorial staff on a personal level.

However, I too think that the FFS Coldside could more than hold its own in a comparison against FM's SC or Voodoo turbo kits.

Did I mention that my 96 FFS Coldside took FTD at our local Miata club track night last week? Actually, top 3 times overall (and I only did 5 runs), the next closest car on a 1min40 second course was a V8 Monster Miata that was 1.8 seconds behind after 8 runs!

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Gord, I love it when you alk like that. :) FTD, FTD, FTD.

[Kyp J]

Actually, top 3 times overall (and I only did 5 runs), the next closest car on a 1min40 second course was a V8 Monster Miata that was 1.8 seconds behind after 8 runs!

You must have a huge venue for a course that long (100 sec.) Or do you have to stop, get out and run around your car 3 times and get back in to finish? I was thinking of a scenario where you reset your own cones but that wouldn't work if you didn't hit any.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Gord, maybe they do it like the old Gymkahna or mini-Kahnas? The passenger has to hold their arm out the window with a potato on a wooden spoon and not drop the potato. That always slowed down the old parking lot races quite a bit. ;)

The race in Cleveland was ~40 seconds and they had 3 cars on the track at a time. Now that was exciting. ;)

[Kyp J]

The race in Cleveland was ~40 seconds and they had 3 cars on the track at a time. Now that was exciting. ;)

Especially for the cone setters. Maybe they don't hit cones there.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

They had at least one driver who was OC on several runs. He did make people dive for cover.

[Gord96BRG]

You must have a huge venue for a course that long (100 sec.) Or do you have to stop, get out and run around your car 3 times and get back in to finish? I was thinking of a scenario where you reset your own cones but that wouldn't work if you didn't hit any.

Let's see if this works: http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=race+city+speedway,+calgary,+ab&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=27.839907,57.128906&ie=UTF8&ll=50.943124,-113.927836&spn=0.01325,0.027895&t=k&z=15&om=1

That's Race City Motorsports Park in Calgary (turn on the Satellite view). We use the south end of the road course - put about 6 cones in a row for a slalom section at the south end of the main straight, a few cones down the centre between turns 4 and 5, and right at the end of turn 5, take the cutover back to the main straight. 2 laps of that is ~ 1:40.

[Kyp J]

You're lucky to have a real road course close by and they let you use it for autocross. Being that narrow doesn't it limit the variability of course design? Or you can use the whole track (or other pieces of it)?

[Mark]

Windy City Miata Club had an autocross scheduled at the Autobahn, using their karting track. But it rained like cats and dogs the day before, leaving the track flooded. Hopefully they'll get it back on the schedule for next year. It looks to be quite fun!

http://www.autobahncountryclub.net/track.html

[Kyp J]

Windy City Miata Club had an autocross scheduled at the Autobahn, using their karting track. But it rained like cats and dogs the day before, leaving the track flooded. Hopefully they'll get it back on the schedule for next year. It looks to be quite fun!

http://www.autobahncountryclub.net/track.html

Nice track! The big one I mean. Do you get a chance to put your Miata on the big track?

Since I think you are a fairly recent member of the FFS family, I should warn you that supercharging will allow you to push the car beyond its ability to cool the engine without extra cooling mods and that the stock temp gauge doesn't show an over heating situation until it is almost too late. If you take it easy and make a cool down lap now and then I guess it is safe.

Of course I didn't even look at my worthless stock gauge so it wouldn't matter what it said. I waited till I saw smoke billowing from the back of the car. It was way too fun to slow down. It only cost Ks of $$$ and untold hours of fun crawling around, under and over the car.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Kyp,

Yours will run lots better when you actually bolt the manifold to the engine. ;)

[Kyp J]

I haven't looked after driving it a bit but I put it back on with all the stock studs and nuts. I hope they are stronger than the bolt store studs were.

Only the top were broken (4 out of 5) and I am wondering if the torque I put on them was too much (for crap studs) and since it is so hard to get to the bottoms, I couldn't torque them as much. I don't think I put more that 25-30 lbs ft, probably less, using a little 12mm open end wrench. I didn't use a torque wrench for obvious reasons. Since I couldn't torque them accurately I don't even know the specs for those nuts. Just "I hope that is tight enough" tight.

Also, the brace link thing on the bottom wasn't up really tight before. Now it can be moved on the joints but with a lot of drag. It takes a bit of effort to twist it. It is really hard to get to those lock nuts with the alternator on and it has to be on before installing the bottom bracket.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Does it feel/sound better now that it isn't blowing the boost out the intake gasket?

[Kyp J]

Since I couldn't hear it until it got worse, I'm not sure how it compares to when you heard it. It sounds better than it did just before I looked in there to see what was going on. It must have been popping studs off gradually. It was still running OK when I could hear the wheezing.

It now seems a bit smoother when cold for the first half mile thru the neighborhood. Before, trying to go slow it would start bucking at a certain RPM level. Full throttle or idle were fine. Now it is less bucky. I understand there is some assertion the ECM recall might cause that cold operation difficulty.

Everything is running smoothly after a little warmup and the odd Air/fuel ratios at partial throttle seem better. I did modify the SS map to keep the E-cool off until about 5 lbs of boost. I had also put back into the SS map the extra fuel for the lean bump around 3-3.5K. I haven't made any adjustments since fixing the manifold.

It should probably have another session on the dyno with someone who knows how to adjust the pro. It is all in the 11 to 12.5 range now which is better than it was. A graph line would probably look like a stock market chart.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

A graph line would probably look like a stock market chart.

If your engine is exceeding 14,000 you may have a problem. ;)

You are welcome back here anytime for another dyno session.

[Mark]

Do you get a chance to put your Miata on the big track?

Since I think you are a fairly recent member of the FFS family, I should warn you that supercharging will allow you to push the car beyond its ability to cool the engine without extra cooling mods and that the stock temp gauge doesn't show an over heating situation until it is almost too late. If you take it easy and make a cool down lap now and then I guess it is safe.

I've not yet had a chance to run the track.($$$) We normally try and get up to Gingerman Raceway in South Haven, MI. They let you get ontrack during test-n-tunes on summer evenings. It too is a fairly nice track with plenty of run off where you might need it.

Thanks for looking out for me! ;) I've got an oil temp gauge along with an oil cooler. It stays fairly cool (<190 ) when I on it for spirited runs out in the country. I know these don't come close to when we're running the track. But Gingerman will split the people up into 3 run groups and give each about 20 minutes out on track at a time. Then you've got time to cool off.

[Kyp J]

It was only 15 minutes into my second (20 second) session when I started blowing the oil out. It was blowby from the cooked rings and cylinders. I think the first session did some damage as I started hearing some clatter at the start of the second session while waiting in the start line up.

Having the oil cooler will certainly mitigate the heat buildup. I think Tom has mentioned it might be a better cooling mod than the radiator but I may be misquoting. It seemed to me that a bigger radiator was called for as long as I was doing the reroute which wasn't so simple but since the engine was out I couldn't resist.

There is a really neat inline temp sender that goes in the radiator hose just out of the engine if you were thinking of a real temp guage. I remember someone posting about it some time back. I think it might be found on egauges.com. I don't have it as I found an old crappy one in the picknpull.

For normal street driving you are probably fine and if you go for a 20 minute track session, back off for a lap every now and then anyway.

[Kyp J]

here is the egauge.com thing I mentioned in the last post.

http://egauges.com/vdo_acce.asp?Subgroup=Hose_Adaptors