BTB with Ecool?

[Curiousgb]

I was asking questions on Miata.net about the BTB and ecool.

There will be two versions. 75mm BTB kit with Idle Air Control and an E-Cool kit. I don't have pricing yet but it should be under $1000 for the whole thing and it should be around 50 WHP added, making it under $20/WHP. All strictly bolt on and drive.

Today was simply a "will the E-Cool kill the ping on 91 octane and 100+ desert heat?". The answer was yes. Two things held us back from making serious WHP and that was his CAT and that dinky throttle body (57mm?). We won't offer it for sale until we have them in stock and ready to ship.

Couple of questions. What exactly is E-cool? Will all this work with my BRP Hotside Kit? 50whp sounds great, super amazing! I want to get some more hp out of my kit and the routes that I see now are AA/IC just to be able to add a larger pulley. All at a rather large cost considering the initial investment.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

We should have better numbers in a couple weeks but that is the goal. ~210 to 225 for under $1000. E-Cool is simply a 5th injector installed in the dummy throttle body on a hotside to cool the incoming charge and add the extra fuel at the same time to allow for a larger pulley and more HP.

It will also include a 75mm throttle body kit to make the power. That will look like this. http://www.FastForwardSuperchargers.com/Hotside/HotsideBTBadaptor.htm. We are also looking into making a hotside kit, E-Cool intercooled to produce ~210-225WHP on 91 octane (94-00 cars. Probably ~200 for 01-05 cars)) for around $3500. At about 110WHP stock, this would be the cheapest WHP/$ for a Miata kit available. Although it won't match the coldside for drivablilty, it will be a very civil kit when finished and not have the idle issues and belt issues associated with other hotside kits. The key is getting all the heat out of the intake air that is added because the supercharger is sitting over the exhaust manifold and add fuel to make more HP at the same time. That is best served by injecting a small portion of the fuel into the hot airstream for cooling and the rest through the stock injectors.

[Curiousgb]

Sounds good. Will this require a pulley change for more boost? If not will one be able to add boost with the ecool?

[chuckerants]

You will need a larger pulley for more boost.

I'm running a 105mm pulley (up from a 100mm) on my hotside in the 100+ heat in Arizona without pinging. As soon as I take care of my plugged cat con, I should be looking at around 185~188 HP JUST with e-cool and a 5mm larger pulley.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

George, Yes a larger pulley will be in the kit. This will be for 6 rib hotsides only.

Chuck, I see a BTB kit and a 110mm pulley in your future and 210+. Maybe even 115 and 220+? :)

[chuckerants]

George, Yes a larger pulley will be in the kit. This will be for 6 rib hotsides only.

Chuck, I see a BTB kit and a 110mm pulley in your future and 210+. Maybe even 115 and 220+? :)

Have I mentioned lately that you're a bad, bad influence. LOL

[Curiousgb]

Talk about bad influences.

If I can get my Hotside to 210/220 safely for under a grand. You most certainly have my attention.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

George, please tell me your blower is not "ported". You have a 2000. I am sure it will be above 200WHP with the kit. What part of the country are you in and what grade fuel do you have. If it is 92 or better, I am pretty sure it will safely make 220/225. And only add a pound or so to the weight of your car.

More to follow as we progress with Chuck's hotside. I think it is the major reason he moved here was to be close to me. ;)

[Curiousgb]

I have made no changes to my Kit other than adding the ELF. I live in Charleston SC so I have 93 octane gas. My last dyno run was 181/149 with the elf set a standard settings. 69.47 °F 30.07 in-Hg Humidity: 38 % SAE: 0.97 Average Gear Ratio: 66.08

s RPM x1000 Air/Fuel hp ft-lbs
0.46 2.60 12.20 65.23 131.77
0.71 2.70 12.00 69.24 134.68
0.96 2.80 12.05 72.06 135.17
1.20 2.90 12.13 75.53 136.79
1.44 3.00 12.25 78.44 137.33
1.68 3.10 12.37 81.28 137.71
1.92 3.20 12.43 84.67 138.97
2.16 3.30 12.48 87.72 139.61
2.39 3.40 12.52 90.95 140.49
2.63 3.50 12.57 93.97 141.00
2.86 3.60 12.65 97.44 142.15
3.09 3.70 12.67 100.88 143.20
3.32 3.80 12.62 104.67 144.66
3.55 3.90 12.58 108.30 145.85
3.78 4.00 12.51 111.22 146.03
4.01 4.10 12.44 114.22 146.31
4.23 4.20 12.38 117.41 146.82
4.46 4.30 12.33 120.30 146.94
4.68 4.40 12.24 123.41 147.31
4.91 4.50 12.21 126.67 147.84
5.13 4.60 12.20 129.96 148.39
5.36 4.70 12.16 133.05 148.67
5.58 4.80 12.17 135.26 148.00
5.80 4.90 12.16 138.82 148.79
6.03 5.00 12.16 142.44 149.63
6.25 5.10 12.31 145.61 149.96
6.47 5.20 12.56 148.14 149.62
6.70 5.30 12.64 150.11 148.76
6.92 5.40 12.60 152.27 148.10
7.15 5.50 12.70 155.29 148.29
7.38 5.60 12.74 157.79 147.99
7.60 5.70 12.72 161.47 148.78
7.83 5.80 12.73 164.12 148.62
8.05 5.90 12.77 166.44 148.16
8.28 6.00 12.75 168.34 147.35
8.51 6.10 12.78 170.56 146.85
8.74 6.20 12.75 172.68 146.28
8.97 6.30 12.65 174.45 145.44
9.21 6.40 12.62 175.97 144.41
9.45 6.50 12.56 177.23 143.20
9.69 6.60 12.48 178.63 142.15
9.93 6.70 12.36 179.54 140.74
10.17 6.80 12.47 181.57 140.24
10.42 6.90 12.57 180.34 137.27
10.70 7.00 12.78 176.18 132.19
--------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
MAX: 10.70 7.00 12.78 181.57 149.96
MIN: 0.46 2.60 12.00 65.23 131.77[/img]

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yep. Your temps and fuel will make it easy.

[chuckerants]

George, it looks like your ELF's P3 could safely be set to 9 or even 10 now.

And as for moving to AZ, proximity to FFS was definetly a plus. :)

[Curiousgb]

With the Ecool could I turn down the elf to gain some headroom?

I lived in San Diego for 8 years. It is hot here in SC but AZ is just too damn hot. I do like northern AZ. Wife and I have talked about retiring North AZ.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

That's what we are/will do with Chuck's. The ELF will provide the majority of the fuel but the E-Cool will provide just enough to cool the charge air. Of course, once you pass 200WHP, the E-Cool will supply the rest of the fuel as the stock injectors are pretty well done about 200. So, worst case, it will supply about 1/9 (11%) of the fuel at 225WHP.

[Curiousgb]

I am really curious as to how the drivability will be with the BTB on the Hotside. I believe BRP experienced issues with the BTB in this area, I don't remember what size theirs is I think 70mm. That said I they do use a BTB with their R4.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I had the old hotside for a year and a half with the 70mm BTB. I also had the W/A IC. It was not like the coldside for idle and belt iussues but it drove OK. I think this kit will drive fine or we won't sell it. We'll let Chuck be the independent judge as he is volunteering his car for the testing, I hope. ;)

He wants me to design an auto tensioner fo it as well so I might take a shot at that. I think there is a market for that out there with current hotside owners. Of course it would have to be like the coldside where it is bullet proof. Belts falling off would be unacceptable.

[Curiousgb]

Sounds like a plan.

[chuckerants]

I had the old hotside for a year and a half with the 70mm BTB. I also had the W/A IC. It was not like the coldside for idle and belt iussues but it drove OK. I think this kit will drive fine or we won't sell it. We'll let Chuck be the independent judge as he is volunteering his car for the testing, I hope. ;)

He wants me to design an auto tensioner fo it as well so I might take a shot at that. I think there is a market for that out there with current hotside owners. Of course it would have to be like the coldside where it is bullet proof. Belts falling off would be unacceptable.

I'm absolutely volunteering my car for anything you want to try as long as it's reversible (no porting please) if it doesn't work as planned.

So far, I'm very happy with the e-cool and its ability to stop the pinging in 100+ weather. Of course as soon as we dialed in the e-cool and 105mm pulley, we go back to 90 degree days. lol

As soon as I take care of my plugged cat, I'm willing to try a 110mm pulley to see what gains I can get.

As for the auto tensioner for the hotside, replacing the 100mm for the 105mm was the first time I swapped pulleys and it was no easier now than it was when I first installed SC using a 420 belt. I really feel that an auto tensioner is needed as I see a real possibility that a klutz like me could either lose a finger or ruin the nose pulley and/or a new belt trying to fit a snug new belt.

[Curiousgb]

Good luck Chukerant. I will be watching for updates. BRP has an autotensioner whats wrong with it, other than it is a bit pricey?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

An auto-tensioner should be about $150 and not require flipping the factory pulley to see which direction works best on your car. It should be simply install and enjoy.

[Serpico]

An auto-tensioner should be about $150 and not require flipping the factory pulley to see which direction works best on your car. It should be simply install and enjoy.


O' Yesssss,,, the joys of being a guinea pig.

With your tensioner, can you just slip the belt on easily (after the tensioner arm is moved over) without having to feed it onto the pulley?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

We supply a special tool with the kits now that makes assembly of the belt a one person job. The tool will also come with the hotside tensioner assembly. The three pictures show the bar, the bar inserted in the tensioner and just a couple fingers needed to move the bar. "Give me a lever long enough and I will move the world" comes to mind. The belt is installed on the crank pulley and SC pulley ignoring the tensioner. Then, with the tensioner bar inserted in the tensioner, you simply move it aside, slip the belt over the tensioner pulley and release the bar. Remove the bar and voila, done. :)

http://FastForwardSuperchargers.com/Install/Install-Belt.jpg

[Serpico]

Thanks for the pics!

The reason I asked is that I'm curious as to when the belt stretches a little, will the the tensioner be able to do its job without pushing the belt onto itself?

or does the belt just not stretch that much over time ?????

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Most of the belt stretch occurs in the first few minutes of driving and the tensioner compensates for that automatically. I have the one on my 99 (teses pictures are from my 99) for several thousand miles (10-11 thousand) and it has not moved since the first day. There is also an indicator on the tensioner to alert you when the belt has stretched beyond it's useful limit.

http://www.FastForwardSuperchargers.com/Install/Belt-Wear-Indicator.jpg

[Serpico]

Nice!

Thanks.

[chuckerants]

The reason I'm so antsy to get one for my hotside is I've seen Tom change the belt on his coldside. To change a belt takes literally 2 minutes and ONE person. This of course doesn;t include the pulley changing time if you're changing it at the same time.

MINE, OTOH was a THREE man job! One person to hold some type of tool underneath the belt that goes around the nose pulley (and hope he doesn;t get his finger caught), second person to crank the engine to make the belt loop around the nose pulley, and ME standing back thinking what a PITA!

Tom's belt change took the entire 2 minutes because he had to ask to borry a tensioner bar.

I still can't believe how easy it was.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, 2 minutes the first time. After that it gets easy. ;)

[Curiousgb]

You build a hotside auto tensioner for 150 that works and you will be a popular person.

On a second note. I helped a friend put some hood lifts and hood pins on his car today. BTW I like those hood lifts. He has a TDR intercooler on a JRSC. He let me pull things apart and take some measurements etc... Now I don't know what all the hoopla is about. I know I can put one of these together. It won't have the nice pipes but it won't be a chop job and it won't cost 1100/1400. I can't buy anything until after I get back from Greece in Sept, so I am going to wait and see what Tom comes up with. If the hotside ecool works I will probably go that way, if not I will build a intercooler and bump up the boost.

I have a set of FM springs I have to install before I head to NC this weekend.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I have the hood lifts on my 99 and love them. I keep thinking of hood pins as security for the fiberglass hood. Which pins did you use? Any pictures?

[Curiousgb]

He has a carbon hood. We used a set of Sparco hood pins. I drilled out the rubber stops for the hood and screwed the pins into them. Then drilled the holes for the hood. Worked like a champ. I will try and get some pics.

[Curiousgb]

Where do you mount the injector for the ecool on a hotside?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

In the side of the dummy throttle body.

[Curiousgb]

do you have to put a bung on it or do you just tap the existing unit. It seems kind of thin.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Plenty of meat. Simply drill and tap for 5/8-18 straight thread. We will probably buy a couple, machine them here and do an exchange. They cost $100 and I don't see the need to add cost to the kit. It is pretty simple. If you have a drill press or a friend with a drill press, you are home free.

[raceskier]

Tom,

Can you verify the thread size again as a 0.625-18 thread? (The standard UNF bolt thread as well as the thread size specified in the Internal Straight Thread Port specs MS33649-07 or SAE AS5202-07) In your response to my question on modifying the Coldside manifold, you had stated the thread size as 0.625-16. A somewhat unusual thread size. I believe someone quoted that thread size in response to a question over on mnet. (Can't seem to bring mnet up right now.)

[Curiousgb]

Drilling and tapping is not a problem. I have a good wife. She lets me buy lots of tools. :D

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It is 5/8-18. Standard thread for 5/8 bolt. If I said -16 someplace, I apologize. We match machine the threads on the injector to the same. It uses a bevel in the port for o-ring seal but, if you don't do the bevel, simply use a bit of ultra-black on the threads. I use if anyway when I install the injector. One thing I HAVE to add, take the red cap off the end of the injector befor installation, fuel flows better that way. Chuck can tell you that. :) They all watched and waited for me to do that before they mentioned I should take it off. :).

[chuckerants]

It is 5/8-18. Standard thread for 5/8 bolt. If I said -16 someplace, I apologize. We match machine the threads on the injector to the same. It uses a bevel in the port for o-ring seal but, if you don't do the bevel, simply use a bit of ultra-black on the threads. I use if anyway when I install the injector. One thing I HAVE to add, take the red cap off the end of the injector befor installation, fuel flows better that way. Chuck can tell you that. :) They all watched and waited for me to do that before they mentioned I should take it off. :).

LOL

The redcap. "Ah, it'll just get blown off when we start the engine anyway." LOL

[Wayne-n-Fla]

I'm abit confussed , nothing new, I thought injecting anything, gas or water pre blower wasn't as good as post blower and on the hot sides was better due to longer "contact/cooling time ?
And wasn't there a lot of idle issues with the other BTB's ?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I'm abit confussed , nothing new, I thought injecting anything, gas or water pre blower wasn't as good as post blower and on the hot sides was better due to longer "contact/cooling time ?
And wasn't there a lot of idle issues with the other BTB's ?

You are correct. We inject in the dummy throttle body which is post blower. The stock Miata has the TB on the intake manifold. With a hotside, the TB is pre blower so they mount a dummy on the IM to have a place to connect the crossover pipe. It has no throttle plate.

There is idle issues with the hotside no matter what TB is used. It is due to the large throttled volume. It gets worse when you have an IC (W/A is less of a problem than A/A obviously but either exacerbates the problem.) but I think I can make it better than it was. We should know next week. I don't think you can get a hotside to idle like a coldside or even close to a stock Miata but I will try.

[raceskier]

Found a drawing of the proper fluid connection boss with dimensions. http://www.link.com/pdfs/lms6-3.pdf
Scroll down to pages 19 and 20. The port is the -07 size, thru design. Done correcty, the injector SHOULD seal with just an o-ring. You could use a sealant for the belts and suspenders approach.

[Curiousgb]

Maybe I am the exception but I really haven't had any real idle problems. So I don't want to induce any problems.

[Wayne-n-Fla]

I'm abit confussed , nothing new, I thought injecting anything, gas or water pre blower wasn't as good as post blower and on the hot sides was better due to longer "contact/cooling time ?
And wasn't there a lot of idle issues with the other BTB's ?

You are correct. We inject in the dummy throttle body which is post blower. The stock Miata has the TB on the intake manifold. With a hotside, the TB is pre blower so they mount a dummy on the IM to have a place to connect the crossover pipe. It has no throttle plate.

There is idle issues with the hotside no matter what TB is used. It is due to the large throttled volume. It gets worse when you have an IC (W/A is less of a problem than A/A obviously but either exacerbates the problem.) but I think I can make it better than it was. We should know next week. I don't think you can get a hotside to idle like a coldside or even close to a stock Miata but I will try.
EXACERBATES, :lol: I'll have to remember that word, BUT wouldn't injecting either H20 or fuel right after the S/C give the most benefit due to the longer contact time, or is there a point where more contact is actually not good ??

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Wayne, Did you ever end up buying a supercharger kit?

Anyhow, with a hotside there is just the crossover seperating the blower from the DTB. I don't think it would make much difference. More convenient to do it at the manifold too.

[Wayne-n-Fla]

Tom, No, not yet,still gathering info, finding places to play, between all the trafic geastpo, yuppies and their larvie clogging up the roads, well probably samey same everywhere and waiting on your H/S E-cool dyno runs today,and drivability report.
Just thinking, :roll: add H20 at SC for max contact/cooling time and fuel at DTB.
Still working on an ?-cool for my pool, lady friend likes the 90 deg. water and it's nice for skinny dipping at night, but I like the water with a little "shrinkage factor " :lol: [/b]

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

We are going to install the parts on Chucks car Tuesday and probably dyno Wednesday. This should be a good test. Temps around 110-115.

We have a S-Heat and E-Cool for the pool. Solar heater on the roof and evaporative spray fountain for when it is too hot.