Safeguard vs. LC-1

[snakebit]

Race Grandpa's post about destroying 2 motors was kind of sobering, esp. as I am about to get my FFSC for my 10AE. I have never owned a FIed car before.

Could someone explain the differences in capabilites of the J&S Safeguard vs. the LC-1? As far as I can tell, the Safeguard is simply a knock sensor w/ adjustable sensitivity that works better than the Miata's knock sensor to quickly retard timing and/or pull boost when needed. The LC-1 is a wideband O2 sensor plus a cable that can interface with the PC Pro to automatically optimize AFR. With a timing card on development by Tom, it could retard timing too? Not sure how it would do that . . . .

My needs are more safety/disaster prevention than tuning/tweaking. I plan to get the setup dynoed, another thing I have never done; do I need my own wideband or does the client use theirs? In any case, I plan to drive the car for quite sometime w/out adding bigger pulleys, etc., and since I will have the 105mm pulley, I can always run 91 octane which is available everywhere.

If the $199 LC-1 plus the factory knock sensor can keep my motor safe, then it sounds like the best investment. (I know that Race Grandpa's 97 has no factory knock sensor.) However, if the factory knock sensor is not up to the task, then I would rather spend $450 on the Safeguard.

I have no plans to track the car for now, don't even have a roll bar. If I did, I would probably need more upgrades (radiator, brakes) and want more boost. Mo' go, mo' dough.

I'll prolly need a new clutch soon anyways, so gotta budget for that too.

Thanks for sharing your experience with a noob.

[socal pat]

Well, I won't talk about what's "best". I will tell you that a J&S is programmed two different ways. It will automatically begin to retard your timing at a pre-determined (by you) boost level and pull additional timing as boost increases. It will also pull timing if it senses knock. So if your settings aren't aggresive enough it can pull more timing than you told it to. Now, if you bought some really crappy gas, that might save your motor. It can and will do nothing re: air/fuel. The LC1 is a device to monitor and tune your air/fuel. This is a good thing. It can't however do anything about ping caused by something other than simple air/fuel ratios. The factory knock sensor helps a bit, but take it from me it won't save your motor.
I think that an arsenal of items such as the PC-pro/LC1 combo along with a J&S or JR timing card added to a propper dyno session is the way to go. Clear as mud?

[Serpico]

I vote for both of them!!!!

I have both and beat the snot out of my car whenever I can and I haven't blown it up yet.... ;)

15,000 boosted miles and tons of autocrossing near/on the rev limiter and all is well so far.

I haven't heard a single ping since I straightened out my A/F ratio (trashed the Elf and got the PC-Pro) and installed the J&S Ultra.

[MarkB]

The J&S will directly sense potential engine damage (knock) due to any cause, LC-1 is indirect and only looks after the A/F ratio.

Mark

[snakebit]

I think that an arsenal of items such as the PC-pro/LC1 combo along with a J&S or JR timing card added to a propper dyno session is the way to go. Clear as mud?Can you tell me if the PC-pro/LC-1/JR timing card combo can hook up to a knock sensor so as to provide the protection of the J&S?

If not, then the J&S will get my $$ first, along with a good dyno session to set it all up.

[BlackStripes]

So, no one has tried e-Manage or the new AEM piggy back in a SC setup?

They both control fuel AND timming for under $600.

[socal pat]

I have no doubt that these things will work. They are , however not part of the origional kit's intent. To have a SIMPLE plug n play SC kit with virtually no tuning (especially the CARB kits). As time goes on and the number of FFS owners grows there will be pioneers and rebels to go with the shills ;). Someday we will see 250 whp with a FFSC hybrid I'm sure.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The LC-1 is strictly fuel monitor/control. The J-S is strictly timing control. The new timing card we are coming out with is timing control without knock sensing. It is typically hard to beat the 01-05 knock sensor/control. I have seen knock on some Miatas with weak or defective O2 sensors. I have also seen knock on 1-05 Miatas with too rich A/F. If the knock is caused by carbon on the pistons, for example, the world's best knock sensor timing control wont help.

[Wayne-n-Fla]

[QUOTE= as I am about to get my FFSC for my 10AE.

[elerner]

Well, I won't talk about what's "best". I will tell you that a J&S is programmed two different ways. It will automatically begin to retard your timing at a pre-determined (by you) boost level and pull additional timing as boost increases. It will also pull timing if it senses knock.

Why would you want to pull timing if boost exceeds a certain amount? In case there's an exhaust problem? That would make sense but the instructions for the J&S say the max boost retard start setting is 10psi. What if you're making over 10psi of boost (for the big pulley crowd)?

[socal pat]

Well, do a few runs with a 105 pulley at ~8psi. Now, go to a 120 at ~14 psi with the same gas in your tank. You will probably ping. I know I did. I had to add octane and fuel and even then had ping in some situations. A few degrees of retard would have eliminated it I'm sure.
As for the max retard "start". I think pulling 1 degree at 10 then one more for each additional pound of boost is reasonable. You can pull more per boost/lb. or begin pulling earlier. I'm sure Tom's will do the same.

[jwalton]

It is typically hard to beat the 01-05 knock sensor/control.

Didn't Mike tell us that the 01-05 knock sensor is only listened to by the stock ECU at low RPM/high load conditions? I seem to remember Mike having to dig through a whole bunch of Mazda factory wiring diagrams and ECU manuals in tracking that down when we were trying to figure out if my ECU was pulling any timing with the massive knock I had before the engine rebuild. Am I remembering right, Tom?

[elerner]

Well, do a few runs with a 105 pulley at ~8psi. Now, go to a 120 at ~14 psi with the same gas in your tank. You will probably ping. I know I did. I had to add octane and fuel and even then had ping in some situations. A few degrees of retard would have eliminated it I'm sure.
As for the max retard "start". I think pulling 1 degree at 10 then one more for each additional pound of boost is reasonable. You can pull more per boost/lb. or begin pulling earlier. I'm sure Tom's will do the same.

So you're saying lose a little HP by pulling some timing, but since you're probably pinging/causing damage at that greater boost level you're certainly still better off (more power than a lower boost level, healthy running engine). Is I learning this right?

And regarding tuning with the LC-1, where does it get the engine speed from? Looking at the install guide I don't see any connection for it? (Compared to a Zeitronix that connects for engine speed AND TPS)

[elerner]

Didn't Mike tell us that the 01-05 knock sensor is only listened to by the stock ECU at low RPM/high load conditions? I seem to remember Mike having to dig through a whole bunch of Mazda factory wiring diagrams and ECU manuals in tracking that down when we were trying to figure out if my ECU was pulling any timing with the massive knock I had before the engine rebuild. Am I remembering right, Tom?

I'm very interested in this answer. If those of us with 01-05's, standard pulleys (105mm) and not tracking the car are suitably protected by the stock knock sensor, that'll save us some dough!

[snakebit]

I'm very interested in this answer. If those of us with 01-05's, standard pulleys (105mm) and not tracking the car are suitably protected by the stock knock sensor, that'll save us some dough!Saving some dough, yes, that's what I had in mind with this thread. I have a 99; is this different/better/worse than the 01-05 knock sensor?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I don't recollect that. Sorry. I have seen the 05 knock system pull a lot of timing under knock. Around 10-12 degrees, I believe. We ran the test out of curiosity. Luckily, with AZ fuel, it is not hard to force knock conditions for testing. ;) It is also my understanding that it shuts down around 5500 to 6000 RPM for the reasons I stated earlier. The 99/00 also has basically the same capabilities/restraints. Although, I believe the 01-05 has a more sensitive sensor.

I have no data/basis for remarks on the 96/97. Sorry.

Didn't Mike tell us that the 01-05 knock sensor is only listened to by the stock ECU at low RPM/high load conditions? I seem to remember Mike having to dig through a whole bunch of Mazda factory wiring diagrams and ECU manuals in tracking that down when we were trying to figure out if my ECU was pulling any timing with the massive knock I had before the engine rebuild. Am I remembering right, Tom?

[Kyp J]

It is also my understanding that it shuts down around 5500 to 6000 RPM for the reasons I stated earlier. The 99/00 also has basically the same capabilities/restraints. Although, I believe the 01-05 has a more sensitive sensor.


I remember seeing your earlier statement about ignoring the knock sensor above a certain RPM but it must be in a different thread because I couldn't find it in this one. What I don't remember or you didn't say is: Does the ECM pull some default value of spark timing in those high RPMs or revert back to something dangerous assuming it had been seeing knock prior to shutting off the sensor? Were you able to monitor the timing in those "knock" tests mentioned?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It is my understanding that it simply reverts to the look up tabel number.

[Kyp J]

It is my understanding that it simply reverts to the look up tabel number.

You could have pulled to the side of the road before responding. I wasn't in a hurry.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I was under 80 MPH at the time so it was OK. :)

[MiataVOL]

I have seen knock on some Miatas with weak or defective O2 sensors.

Tom - I lost two catalytic conververs after repeated coilpack failures. Do you think it would worthwhile for me to replace the rear O2 sensor to see if it helps with mid-range (tip-in) pinging?

MiataVOL


2002 / MP62-S3 (105mm-65mm) / BTB / Small BRP A-A Intercooler / NGK BKR8EIX plugs / PNP-PC-Pro + J&S (Sensitivity = 1:00, Start=full CCW, Rate= 1:00) / TDR Heat Shield / Good-Win-Racing RoadsterSport Mid-pipe / VVT Adj. / 93 Octane gas (the J&S still lights up)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The ar O2 has only one job in life. To monitor the cat. The front O2 is the one used for everything else. Tip-in ping is typically poor fuel, hot intake charge air.

Does it go away quickly?

[MiataVOL]

Tom - On 1/2 - full accleration, the J&S will typically light up for 3-4 seconds, and stop when the rpm's reach ~ 4,000 rpm. [Thanks for the info on the rear 02 sensor.] FYI -I have a date set with a dyno in a couple of weeks - I hope this will shed some light on the pinging.

Thanks,

MiataVOL

2002 / MP62-S3 (105mm-65mm) / BTB / Small BRP A-A Intercooler / NGK BKR8EIX plugs / PNP-PC-Pro + J&S (Sensitivity = 1:00, Start=full CCW, Rate= 1:00) / TDR Heat Shield / Good-Win-Racing RoadsterSport Mid-pipe / VVT Adj. / 93 Octane gas (the J&S still lights up)

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Can you hear it or just see the lights?

[MiataVOL]

Tom - Where the settings are now, I can only see the J&S light-up. If I back-off on the J&S settings (start or rate), I can also hear the ping.

MiataVOL