Initial Installation Set and first drive questions

[Snakeoil]

Tom,

Read thru the installation instructions with PC-Pro for the 01-05 version coldside version. It appears that the throttle idle setting is the only adjustment. But as I read thru threads I see many dyno tuning their cars, having issues with low hp, etc.

Is the intial start up and first drive as simple as the instructions indicate? Or can one expect to do some tuning due to manufacturing variations and such?

Thanks,
Rob

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

For street use, the kit should be bolt it on and drive it with the only adjustment needed being the idle. That, of course, assumes that everything installed well. No vacuum leaks, wires connected to the 5th injector OK and no defects.

Most of the guys that head to a dyno are the ones with non-stock pulleys or people that are going to track the car. Nothing beats a trip to the dyno to ferret out problems or tweak for best HP. It also finds out right away if you have any internal engine problems. I don't think we have had anybody not make the base 190WHP unless they had some engine problems. California kits excepted.


Tom,

Read thru the installation instructions with PC-Pro for the 01-05 version coldside version. It appears that the throttle idle setting is the only adjustment. But as I read thru threads I see many dyno tuning their cars, having issues with low hp, etc.

Is the intial start up and first drive as simple as the instructions indicate? Or can one expect to do some tuning due to manufacturing variations and such?

Thanks,
Rob

[John Miles]

I don't think we have had anybody not make the base 190WHP unless they had some engine problems. California kits excepted.

I definitely have not seen the far side of 175 RWHP in my '03. I don't blame the coldside kit, however... it's a case of adding a supercharger to what amounts to a very mediocre engine. The engine is much less mediocre now, which is all I was really after. :)

Apart from the low HP issue, the unresolved issues in my case are mainly persistent medium-RPM pinging (this thing really does not like to climb hills at less than 4K RPM) and poor cold-running performance until the ECU goes closed-loop (although I have seen no idle problems at all, unlike some other users).

My car has always tended to ping when climbing hills, especially on warmer days with the A/C on, so this definitely wasn't caused by the addition of the blower. We were pretty sure that it was caused by an exhaust restriction, but while exhaust flow was improved by installation of a new RoadsterSport catback system, my RWHP was basically unchanged. Compression/leakdown tests were OK, and I haven't had time to investigate other possibilities like fuel-pressure issues.

Point being, the kit is a great upgrade and I recommend it wholeheartedly, but it can't make a nice engine out of a crappy one.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

You bring it out to me and we'll either make it or break it. :)

The key is that you had ping before the blower. Have you checked your base timing? You guys in WA state seem to have a go at it. Seriously, Club Tom has the doors open and the lights on. Bring it down and we'll make it go. Dyno and troubleshooting is on me as well as room and board. I would have put money on the cat. Low WHP and ping are typical of a down stream plug.

Got any dyno or A/F charts you can send me? ThomS had a problem with his O2 sensor. Bought a brand new one and had ping that wouldn't quit. Took it back and Mazda gave him another new one. Put it on and all the ping went away. Could be a bad O2. A dyno and A/F chart would tell a lot there.

Bring it down and we'll make it work.

I definitely have not seen the far side of 175 RWHP in my '03. I don't blame the coldside kit, however... it's a case of adding a supercharger to what amounts to a very mediocre engine. The engine is much less mediocre now, which is all I was really after. :)

Apart from the low HP issue, the unresolved issues in my case are mainly persistent medium-RPM pinging (this thing really does not like to climb hills at less than 4K RPM) and poor cold-running performance until the ECU goes closed-loop (although I have seen no idle problems at all, unlike some other users).

My car has always tended to ping when climbing hills, especially on warmer days with the A/C on, so this definitely wasn't caused by the addition of the blower. We were pretty sure that it was caused by an exhaust restriction, but while exhaust flow was improved by installation of a new RoadsterSport catback system, my RWHP was basically unchanged. Compression/leakdown tests were OK, and I haven't had time to investigate other possibilities like fuel-pressure issues.

Point being, the kit is a great upgrade and I recommend it wholeheartedly, but it can't make a nice engine out of a crappy one.

[John Miles]

I appreciate it, Tom -- I think it would, indeed, be pretty easy to sort out if I were down there. As things stand, I just haven't had time to deal with it, and since it runs fine for the most part, I have been putting off dealing with it.

Beyond a few dyno runs in which we experimented with the PC Pro settings (with no major effects), I haven't done much diagnostic work yet. I'll admit I haven't checked the timing, simply because I've never heard of timing problems on a modern car. Those are just numbers in an EPROM, aren't they?

I've been planning to post my dyno charts (some of which I think I already did post, several months ago?) but again, haven't had much time to deal with it one way or the other. With other cars I've owned, the slightest discrepancy has been cause for major panic, and I actually like the fact that the Miata has brought a "who cares, if it blows up I'll stick an LS1 in there or something" attitude to my life. I'd like to make a road trip down to the Phoenix area sometime and see what you think, but it's not going to happen for several more months, at least.

Mostly, I just wanted to emphasize to prospective installers that if there are any suspicious symptoms like pinging, low baseline HP (112 RWHP pre-installation, which is low for an engine specified for 140 RWHP at the crank) or poor MPG (around 22 mixed city/highway before the kit was installed, now up to 25-26), it's a good idea to resolve them up front.

[John Miles]

You guys in WA state seem to have a go at it.

It's also possible that we just have relatively-poor gas up here. The pinging does get a bit better with octane booster, although it doesn't disappear entirely.

[bogey]

Is the intial start up and first drive as simple as the instructions indicate? Or can one expect to do some tuning due to manufacturing variations and such?


My experience was plug and play. After install, it started up and ran great. I had a couple lean issues, but my FPR was bad and I replaced it. I drove it for several months before I really started tweaking things.

This summer I replaced my cat which was clogged at 90K. This gave me a lot more power and stopped any pinging.

In general, assuming a strong, problem free engine, the kits can be installed with little tuning. If you do not install gauges (boost and A/F), you should really should go to the dyno to verify that fueling is working correctly.

Check the basics first: compression test and fuel pressure test. Verify the cooling system is in good condition. Then go for it.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Something is really wrong. Ping and low WHP are not normal. Especially with octane booster. I really wish you would come down for a visit.


It's also possible that we just have relatively-poor gas up here. The pinging does get a bit better with octane booster, although it doesn't disappear entirely.

[Snakeoil]

I can see I started a serious discussion here. This is good. My car is pretty near new. '03 with 8K on the odo. Runs very, very well. Compared to my '91, it feels more like an electric motor. Do not expect plugged cat problems or similar high mileage issues.
Interesting that in spite of issues with John's car, he is still a satisfied customer. Also thought Tom' offer was more than generous. I think I need to see if there is a chassis dyno in this area. I know where most if not all the bike dynos. But never had a need for a car dyno.
Rob

[socal pat]

Yah, doubling your horsepower is a BIG thing and needs to be done with caution and care. In the old days you pretty much needed a fair amount of experience to even attempt such a thing. Now anyone can strap on more power and blow their motor. All these issues that crop up can be dealt with without too much fuss. It just takes some knowhow (either yours or your mechanic's).

[chuckerants]

Mostly, I just wanted to emphasize to prospective installers that if there are any suspicious symptoms like pinging, low baseline HP (112 RWHP pre-installation, which is low for an engine specified for 140 RWHP at the crank) or poor MPG (around 22 mixed city/highway before the kit was installed, now up to 25-26), it's a good idea to resolve them up front.

The Miata is rated at 140 HP at the FLYWHEEL. 112 WHEEL HP is exactly where your car should be stock. I have all the dyno graphs from a Dyno Days a couple of years ago and for a stock 2003 with nothing but a RB Intake it shows 111~112 HP.

The gas mileage OTOH definitely is low.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Typical stock WHP seems to be about 115WHP for the 01-05, 110 for the 99/00 and 105 for the 94-97. Of course there are exceptoions but those are what we have seen mostly on stock baseline runs before installation of the kits. If you want a baseline run after the kit is installed, remove the belt and make a run.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Low gas mileage could also be an indicator of an O2 on it's last legs.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Go here http://www.dynojet.com/dyno_centers/automotive/index.aspx and insert your zip code. That should get you some near by.


I can see I started a serious discussion here. This is good. My car is pretty near new. '03 with 8K on the odo. Runs very, very well. Compared to my '91, it feels more like an electric motor. Do not expect plugged cat problems or similar high mileage issues.
Interesting that in spite of issues with John's car, he is still a satisfied customer. Also thought Tom' offer was more than generous. I think I need to see if there is a chassis dyno in this area. I know where most if not all the bike dynos. But never had a need for a car dyno.
Rob

[John Miles]

You're right; I don't know why I typed "RWHP at the crank." Should've read: "112 RWHP is low for an engine specified as 140 HP at the crank."

And it is. 20% driveline loss is not a great figure with a standard transmission...

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I didn't mean like 2002 I meant O2 as in front Oxygen sensor. :) Sorry if there was any confusion.

Low gas mileage could also be an indicator of an O2 on it's last legs.

[snakebit]

Hello, fellow serpentine namesake! I just got my coldside up and running in my 99 and here's my experiences so far:
1. Any question I had during the install, Tom was there to answer (or just reassure!).
2. First turn of the key: perfect idle and drivability, better than stock.
3. First drive: underwhelming. Reason: my fault, I had a loose fitting at boost gauge bleeding off boost and throwing off the PC Pro. Tom diagnosed it immediately. Easy fix with a couple zip ties.
4. 2nd drive: woohooo! Bouncing of the rev limiter, everyone small in my mirrors. Now, I have a very strong (and thirsty) Volvo wagon with a built 5.0. Probably close to 1:10 hp/weight. The Miata feels just as strong but not as linear. Hard to beat a V8 for linear power delivery and hole-shot torque.

I've been fussing about seeing only 9 psi boost, but that may well be my gauge. I have absolutely no complaints about the performance. I will go to the dyno because I don't have a wideband and want to confirm my AFR and because I just like to know things. But the kit is most def a turnkey success.

[Snakeoil]

Well Cousin, please excuse the late response. I'm a little behind in my forum stuff.
Glad you are enjoying your SC kit. Appreciate the candid report on how it works.
I'm still waiting to go for a ride in Evan's car. That will help with the decision. Currently looking for another bike for Fall and weekday riding at home. Getting rid of the sport bikes because it is just too frustrating to ride them on the street. Gonna get another Harley because you know the limits up front and they are easily reached on the street with little risk.
Rob

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I hope I put this back on topic. :)

The other bike posts are now here http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=972

Sorry guys.