Pros and Cons - FM vs FFS

[Snakeoil]

Tom,

I read the thread where one of the listers had sold his Miata and mentioned your support superior to others, including FM. I'm not looking for you to bash any of your competitors. But, I was just looking at their set up and it apears that they use the OEM intake. They did not have a lot of pictures and I did not see any of the system actually installed. Is my assumption correct? Is there an advantage of bolting on a special intake versus using the stock intake.

Thanks,
Rob

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

We make the only "real" Coldside. Sadly, when FM made the UBER, they mounted it over on the intake side and called it a Coldside to take advantage of the good press that Coldsides get for driveability, throttle response, etc. They did a good job of defending it and confusing the general public. I tip my hat to their marketing. I think Corky is too honest to continue that type of marketing. Time will tell. In any case, the Coldside has very low (about 122 ci) of throttled volume vs. a typical SC installation (whether it is mounted on the exhaust side [hotside] or not) that outputs it's boost to a long tube that goes to a high volume intercooler and back to a long tube to the stock intake. The throttled volume can easily be three times that of a coldside.

Think of a race bicycle tire and a monster truck tire. Let's say you want to inflate both to 30 PSI. You have a compressor that is good for 50 PSI. You apply pressure to the bike tire and it is filled in seconds. You apply pressure to the monster truck tire and it is filled in minutes. The scale is different BUT, that is the issue between the two. Although a supercharger is way better in response than a turbo, it is still slower than a coldside to make that smooth torque.

As to support, the phone number in my signature is my cell phone and I am available 7 days a week. Some companies lose track of the fact that most customers do their install on weekends. That is the most important time to be available to them. Not just 9-5 M-F. This is also the only company that I have seen that post it's problems for the world to see. For example, awhile back we had an injector problem and recalled a load of them. We made the problem as public as we could. Yesterday I posted a warning about a possible problem and cure for the nose pulley on the SC. FFS is a human company and problems occur. We have nothing to hide here. Show me one recall by the other companies? Trust me, they are not perfect. They just don't air their dirty laundry. I would only be ashamed of my problems if I didn't take care of my customers.

Hope that helped. If not, call me anytime.

[chuckerants]

And Tom says call any time, he means it.

[Mark]

I'd like to also say that beyond Tom and his fine company, there are quite a few people right here on this forum that are very knowledgeable about Tom's product and are willing to help out at anytime too. Read through the past messages. You never find any hint of sarcasm or anyone turning their nose up at you for asking questions. Most questions prompt a discussion that everyone adds to.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

So far, I haven't seen anyone on this forum say "search is your friend" either. I think that is one of the MOST unkind things said to a newcomer.

[chuckerants]

So far, I haven't seen anyone on this forum say "search is your friend" either. I think that is one of the MOST unkind things said to a newcomer.

No kidding. That is just so irritating!

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Most other vendors in Tom's shoes would have probably blacklisted me :), being a former employee at BRP. However, even after we had a little bit heated internet debate, Tom talked to me on the phone and discussed very freely about his kits. It became obvious to me that Tom was just another die-hard car enthusiast just like the rest of us! Since then, Tom has given me plenty of customer support and the forum has proven to be a very enthusiastic and knowledgeable bunch. I can also see that everybody here loves the free discussion of continual improvement of our supercharged kits.... even ones not 100% FFS. I am able to talk to Tom any time, even Sundays at midnight LOL. Even if it is just a technical question. I can't see support getting any better than this!

Bill

[chuckerants]

Not only that, there's always a light on at the FFS hotel. :)

[Gord96BRG]

Tom,

I read the thread where one of the listers had sold his Miata and mentioned your support superior to others, including FM. I'm not looking for you to bash any of your competitors. But, I was just looking at their set up and it apears that they use the OEM intake. They did not have a lot of pictures and I did not see any of the system actually installed. Is my assumption correct? Is there an advantage of bolting on a special intake versus using the stock intake.

Thanks,
Rob

Rob, there's a big advantage to the special intake that goes far beyond the intakes - the FM system is having the hardware developed by StageOneTuning (but that's not the issue), and their kit uses a centrifugal supercharger (that's the issue!). The FFS kit for the NC is using the familiar Roots-type MP62 supercharger, and in my opinion is a much better choice for a relatively small displacement engine. The centrifugal superchargers are popular with Mustangs etc where they have an engine with lots of low-end torque that run "out of breath" at higher rpm, because that's exactly where the centrifugal SC is effective - at higher rpm. On a 4 cylinder engine with more modest low and mid-range torque, though, the centrifugal SC doesn't help nearly as much as the MP62 or a turbocharger. I just don't find that the inherent characteristics of a centrifugal SC are suited to a smaller displacement engine, and MUCH prefer the way the FFS system runs (on my 96, at least).

Some will say that the NC has a better torque curve than the NA or NB Miatas, so it's not as big a difference if you run a centrifugal SC - but I suspect it will still be a big difference in character.

As I'm a moderator at Miata.net, I'm not allowed to express opinions over there - here, I can! ;) I've bought a fair bit of stuff from FM, and their support is good, no question - but in a bigger company sort of way. For example, if you have a part that needs to be exchanged, you send the old one back before they ship the replacement. Tom, on the other hand, doesn't mind cross-shipping to get you back on the road faster. FM usually never has a problem replacing a problem part, but Tom just gets it done faster and friendlier! So, my opinion is that the basic design of the FFS NC SC system will result in a more satisfactory system, and I will definitely agree that Tom's quality, support, and service is unmatched.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

We don't have customers. We have family. ;)

[chuckerants]

We don't have customers. We have family. ;)

Does that make me a distant step-child? ;)

[socal pat]

It has been brought up before and bears repeating that most folks do their mechanicing on the weekend. I think we should get Keith's phone number and call him every hour between 7am and 8 pm on Sunday and see how he responds :taz:

[Snakeoil]

Well, it certainly appears that either Tom owes you all a great deal of money, or he is really a straight shootin', customer oriented, customer satisfaction driven guy. Since posting my original question I called Tom and spent more time than I expected on the phone discussing the virtues of SC and the various options, reliability, etc.. He also offered to answer any questions I might have in the future, regardless of whose system I ended up putting on the car. So much for the "owes you all money theory".
One note to Gord, I have seen your posts on Miata.net and always enjoyed reading them. But the FM SC kit I'm refering to must be a fairly new kit because it also uses the M62 SC that Tom uses. What I noticed in the picture and what sparked my question, was it has what appears to be a snorkel mounted to the top of the SC that I believed feds air into the OEM inake manifold. As Tom mentioned in his reply it is not a true coldside in that it still has a longer tubing run providing the air to the engine versus his, which is about a short as you can get.
I have been reading thru many of the threads here and have to agree that you certainly are a jovial bunch. Good discussions should always include differences of opinion otherwise it's just a mutual admiration society.
I hope to get a ride in Evan's Miata next week, his schedule permitting. I suspect that will be the final step in the decision process. In the meantime, I'll continue to lurk here and on Miata.net soaking up more info as the discussions continue.
Did you ever stop to think that forums like this probably have kept more marriages together than anyone could ever imagine. Before being able to find a bunch similarly minded individuals to talk about your passions in forums like this, one had to join a club or hang around in bars or firehouse or some other place where the wife would not normally go. Now we can just stay home and out of trouble and keep peace while still having fun. I'm sure divorce lawyers hate the internet.
Rob

[Gord96BRG]

the FM SC kit I'm refering to must be a fairly new kit because it also uses the M62 SC that Tom uses. What I noticed in the picture and what sparked my question, was it has what appears to be a snorkel mounted to the top of the SC that I believed feds air into the OEM inake manifold. As Tom mentioned in his reply it is not a true coldside in that it still has a longer tubing run providing the air to the engine versus his, which is about a short as you can get.
That's even more of a trick question! ;) Since this section is called "NC Coldside", I assumed you were asking about superchargers for the 2006+ NC Miata - and the NC system Flyin Miata will be selling is a centrifugal SC developed by SOT. However, the SC system currently available from Flyin Miata for the NA and NB Miatas only is indeed a hotside MP62 system. It was originally developed by BRP, taken over by SOT, and now is marketed by FM. Tom does sell a version of the Moss Motors hotside MP62 as well, and Tom's version has a few distinct advantages. For power beyond about 220 wheel hp, the hotside design is better because it allows the use of an air/air intercooler. Up to 220 wheel hp, however, and I personally believe the FFS Coldside is the more desirable unit.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Just so all of you guys know, your monthly stipend checks will be going out on the first of the month. Keep up the kind words.

[Snakeoil]

Yes, I did post this in the wrong place. When I first joined Miata.net they did not use the terms NA, NB and NC or at least I don't remember them using them. The new '99 had just come out. When I came back to the forum this year the NA, NB thing was now in vogue and I'm still getting used to it. I triggered on the term Coldside. Sorry.
regards,
Rob

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I never even noticed. Easily fixed though. :-)

Moved to Superchargers.


Yes, I did post this in the wrong place. When I first joined Miata.net they did not use the terms NA, NB and NC or at least I don't remember them using them. The new '99 had just come out. When I came back to the forum this year the NA, NB thing was now in vogue and I'm still getting used to it. I triggered on the term Coldside. Sorry.
regards,
Rob

[FormerDatsun510Man]

Some details:

-The only true Coldside kit sold today for the Miata is at FFS. It mounts the MP62 on the intake side of the engine with a low volume/high flow intake manifold. Comes with a big TB standard. Really the most efficient way to run a non-intercooled setup and also using the best blower for the job IMO.

-The Hotside kit has some advantages, but it depends on your power goals. It allows one to run an air/air IC to make more power and quite a bit more torque. However there are two prices that you pay. The first is that the driveability is not as good when running the intercooler, which really IMO is the whole point in getting a Hotside.... otherwise you should get a Coldside. There is a highflow intake manifold from SOT (perhaps FM sells them now?) that greatly improves driveability and power potential even further, but that is another $1000 on top of the $1200 for the air/air IC. The second is price itself. You are looking at an extra $2200+ to get the Hotside at least equaling the Coldside in terms of driveability and reliability. I think that snorkel you referred to is the outlet manifold to the supercharger?

-When FM was talking a few years back about how their kit was a "coldside", they were sort of twisting words IMO. This refers to their Ubercharger kit. It was a Lysholm 1200 supercharger that was indeed, mounted on the intake manifold side (i.e. the "coldside"). However, it used an air/air intercooler. The path the air would take was from the supercharger to the front mounted air/air intercooler and then from the intercooler back to the intake manifold. They had to run quite a bit of piping to accomplish that. I did some calculations a few years ago and concluded that the throttled volume on the Uber was actually greater than the MP62 Hotside. The Hotside MP62 with the TDR air/air IC runs two very short pipes and that coupled with the R4 intake manifold makes for a very low volume setup that runs an intercooler. Anyway, the Uber supercharger kit is now being sold by BEGI, who was the one who was making it all along for FM when it was called the Uber. Now it is called the MOAB (mother of all blowers). Since it is a 1.2L twinscrew (as compared to our 1L MP62 blowers), it does have a max power advantage. But this advantage really is only good for built engines IMO. For 300+rwhp it would probably be the best choice. At 250rwhp though I think an intercooled Hotside MP62 is better choice.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Well, actually, the UBER/MOAB is probably only good for 250WHP. When a local Miata owner had his car built by FM with the 2L stroker and the UBER, it made 300WHP. However, it was a 2L. As the old addage goes "There's no replacement for displacement". However, the UBER gave up. This was well after the story that Keith put out about how there were a lot of UBERS that failed but it was due to the paper gasket between the UBER and it's mount allowing the case to torque. The local Miata owner sent it in to be rebuilt at the company that rebuilds Whipples. They said it was OBVIOUS that it had been "overspun". They rebuilt and sent it back. What was FM's solution? Smaller crank pulley. The UBER then put out 250WHP. However, he has a lot of money in the two UBERs and Two 2L engines so, to get his paid for 300WHP they are/have replaced his UBER with a 300WHP turbo. Not sure the UBER/MOAB will ever "reliably" make 300WHP. If it does, it wont be on a stock engine. I believe I recently read that the one Bell is testing died on the way to the dyno. Even at only 200WHP the MOAB did Larry's (Michigan) engine in.

Just for a guess, that 300WHP cost about $15,000. You really have to want 300WHP to spend that kind of money.

Long story short. If you want high HP numbers, get a turbo. If you are happy under 225, get an MP62 kit.

[snakebit]

But the FM SC kit I'm refering to must be a fairly new kit because it also uses the M62 SC that Tom uses. What I noticed in the picture and what sparked my question, was it has what appears to be a snorkel mounted to the top of the SC that I believed feds air into the OEM inake manifold. As Tom mentioned in his reply it is not a true coldside in that it still has a longer tubing run providing the air to the engine versus his, which is about a short as you can get.As others have explained, the FFSC throttled volume is very small, but it has nothing to do with the distance between the intake filter and the SC. I am finishing up my coldside install and have decided to run a long hose from the TB to the stock air box, but this does not increase my throttled volume at all. The only theoretical liability is some restriction of the air flow in that long tube with its several bends, but Tom and I discussed this and concluded that the SC's ability to move air makes this a non-issue.
Throttled volume is the volume of the air between the TB and the intake valves in the head. (I learned that on this forum.:yes: ) That's what you want to minimize to keep throttle response crisp and drivability excellent.

[bogey]

...I am finishing up my coldside install and have decided to run a long hose from the TB to the stock air box

How are you runnng the intake tube to the stock airbox?
Why did you decide on this?
Do you have any photos?

[Wayne-n-Fla]

How are you runnng the intake tube to the stock airbox?
Why did you decide on this?
Do you have any photos?
My guess on the WHY is that being in the land of liquid sunshine (rain) that he is concerned about having to run through some deep [to a miata] water and sucking up to much water ?

[FormerDatsun510Man]

The only pic I see on FM's website of their MP62 kits is here:

http://www.flyinmiata.com/superchargers/index.php

The top most picture is the only one I can see that looks like a snorkel. If that is the one the original poster is referring to, that is the outlet manifold for the blower.... not an intake.

Dow! Now that I reread Snakeoil's second post, I see he understands that that snorkel is the outlet manifold to the blower that connects to the stock intake manifold with the crossover tube (or optionally air/air intercooler).

Regarding air intakes to the supercharger, one thought is one could run a pipe under the supercharger so that it connects to another pipe going over to the stock airbox. I recall BRP had this sort of setup for their M45 Coldside kit as an option. I think in fact that it allowed one to use the stock crossover tube and also use other aftermarket normally aspirated intakes (since they all are designed to hook up to the same place at the manifold as the stock airbox). I am not sure about clearance with the MP62 Coldside, since it sticks out more being that it runs on a separate 6-rib belt, but thought I would mention it. Though this would add a multitude of piping, for those that want the airbox to be at the stock location it might be a good option. Of course, the drawback would be that the air would get reheated more on the way to the supercharger.

Bill

[snakebit]

How are you runnng the intake tube to the stock airbox?
Why did you decide on this?
Do you have any photos?Wayne said it - hydrolockophobia. I got some more black intake hose from Tom and ran it from the TB under the SC and up and along the top of the radiator. Used part of the stock intake hose. From the box, I ran a short length of hose into a cold air chamber made by creating some sheet metal "walls" to extend off of the 3-relay holder in front of the headlight. The chamber seals to the hood with foam. Doesn't look slick but it works. I'll post picks soon; hopefully she will fire up today!:party:

[snakebit]

pics over here: http://www.fastforwardsuperchargers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10521#post10521

[SoOSpEcMx5]

I agree Tom is a good business man and know how to conduct business the right way! I think a lot of people need to take business101 classes from Tom! :D

Long story short, Tom offered to send me the powercard pro to test out on my Flyin' Miata VDII turbo kit. If I didn't like it just send it back. How cool is that?

I was going to join Tom's CS family after I sold my JRSC but I got a deal on FM's test pilot that I couldn't pass up.

So does this mean I am a black sheep now? ;)

Another thing that Tom said is also true. I fall into the category of working 9-5pm, M-F, and only can toy with my car on the weekend. On the weekend FM is closed. So basically mess with it on the weekend and call on weekdays for support! I wish FM has 24-7 support like Tom!

Way to go Tom!

(Not to bash on Tom's PC-Pro offer, but in the end I got a Hydra because I figured I wanted full control over my car and pc-pro will not provide enough fuel for what I am aiming for. But THANKS Tom!)

[chuckerants]

(Not to bash on Tom's PC-Pro offer, but in the end I got a Hydra because I figured I wanted full control over my car and pc-pro will not provide enough fuel for what I am aiming for. But THANKS Tom!)

I don't think this is bashing Tom. FFS kits (If I may paraphrase Tom) has always been for people that do not have the time, inclination or skill to tinker with a stand-alone ECU. I lack the first two and therefore, I love the simplicity of the PC Pro.

One day, perhaps I'll REALLY get the power bug and step up to a MS, or whatever, but for now, PC Pro suits my needs perfectly.

[MiataMTF]

I don't think this is bashing Tom. FFS kits (If I may paraphrase Tom) has always been for people that do not have the time, inclination or skill to tinker with a stand-alone ECU. I lack the first two and therefore, I love the simplicity of the PC Pro.

One day, perhaps I'll REALLY get the power bug and step up to a MS, or whatever, but for now, PC Pro suits my needs perfectly.

That's my view. As an mechanical and process engineer with nearly 20 years' experience, I can confidently state the KISS'ing a project is the best approach if you want to keep a project reliable AND (relatively) inexpensive. BUT, I guess my opinions are tempered from having been a manager and executive as well (that's where the "low-cost" view comes from). I find that it's sad that "enthusiasts" can't accept that a seamingly simple solution actually works.

I learned long ago that the general public (i.e. uninformed) tend to seek complexity over simplicity - just to "be cool" if nothing else. For instance, I always thought the 250bhp FD RX-7 was a better car than a 320bhp 300ZX, 330bhp 3000GT, or the C4 Corvette (the MkIV Supra was an exception) but most people I met kept telling me that the FX-7 was "underpowered". Unfortunately, Mazda didn't get the point - that the end performance didn't matter when it comes to marketing the car and selling units. In the end, only hardcore drivers' fully appreciated what Mazda was able to accomplish with the FD. Now that Mazda (Ford) figured out the marketing side, we have the RX-8 (yuck!). I'm anxiously awaiting the reintroduction of an RX-7 with the Renesis engine, I'm hoping that it will be a true evolution of the FD - it would be even better if they offered a topless version.

Back to the point about simple solutions - A KISS approach, properly engineered and implemented, can get you 90% of the way. That last bit of "untapped" performance comes at a high price (time and money) and generally requires constant adjustments to keep in tune (regardless of what you may have read elsewhere). I incorporated the FFS PC-Pro/e-Cool into my JRSC M45 and I have no compliants. The ONLY adjustment I have to make is tweaking the overall fuel curve (y/b) when I get a bad tank of gas. I'll take my 1.8L up to about 230whp which is well-below the maximum potential but 100% more than Mazda's production units. Very few engineers build-in more than a 100% safety margin which (to me) explains why so many associated parts (clutch, transmission, differential, cooling, brakes ... and so on) fail over 250whp. If I want/need more than 230whp, I'll have to figure out how to get a V8 past the Smog-NAZIs.

[Snakeoil]

As an mechanical and process engineer with nearly 20 years' experience, I can confidently state the KISS'ing a project is the best approach if you want to keep a project reliable AND (relatively) inexpensive.
I learned long ago that the general public (i.e. uninformed) tend to seek complexity over simplicity - just to "be cool" if nothing else.
A KISS approach, properly engineered and implemented, can get you 90% of the way.

Amen to that. I've been away from this site for awhile with a new diversion and see this thread has taken on a life of its own. My primary concern when I first started looking into a FI kit for a Miata was ease of ownership and reliability. I'm a firm believer in simplicity. With complexity comes more opportunities for problems. In thread on Miata.net regarding oil filter relo kits, one of the biggest arguments against a relo kit was more opportunities for leaks and failures.

The last things I want with any FI kit are realiability issues and more time required under the hood "tinkering" to keep things running well. Having grown up in the old school of carbs and points, I truly appreciate the reliability of modern engine management systems, in spite of their complexity. Just think how great it would be if all they had to do was give you max performance and not be bothered with emissions issues.
I understand that there are gearheads out there that love to tinker, fix and constantly monkey with their rides, regardless of the application. I like to think that God created Jaguar for those folks. But me, I like to build it, run it and maintain it, and that's it. Well maybe polish it and enjoy it too. That's why I love Miatas. They seem to be the most bulletproof roadster to ever come down the road. My only complaint is they are a little lacking in the performance dept. From what I see, the FFS kits get you that added performance without making a negative impact on the proven reliability of the Miata and without over-complicating the car. It still baffles me why Miata does not give Tom a big basket of cash to buy his design and make the FFS Miata a factory option.
Rob

[zoom2xtn]

Absolutely right! I feel like family on this site and receive help from Tom and many others with my beginner questions and there is never any condescension, only a sense of dealing with people who love their neighbors as themselves -- and it's a big, global neighborhood.

Lee

[Mx5-4me]

Me likes.. I think i would do it with some Mandrel bends then have it either ceramic coated or powder coated..


http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c324/7stringviper/Cars/IMG_1061.jpg

[da_blue]

Have you guys ever considered using a K&N Drycharger over your filter element to keep water away ? K&N uses them on their CAI kits and I have tested it with satisfying results... They have many sizes and colour available...

[99mx5]

The only downside to the Drycharger filter wrap is if there is any abrasion it will wear through it.

[snakebit]

Me likes.. I think i would do it with some Mandrel bends then have it either ceramic coated or powder coated..Ceramic coating should help with the heat soak which I am experiencing. Intake air temps are generally 10-20*F over ambient.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

That intake setup is pretty neat because people with normally aspirated aftermarket intakes could simply use them with the Coldside. I'm curious how a Monsterflow or Racing intake would work with that setup you have there. It might work very well.

Bill

[97 M SC]

Rob, there's a big advantage to the special intake that goes far beyond the intakes - the FM system is having the hardware developed by StageOneTuning (but that's not the issue), and their kit uses a centrifugal supercharger (that's the issue!). The FFS kit for the NC is using the familiar Roots-type MP62 supercharger, and in my opinion is a much better choice for a relatively small displacement engine. The centrifugal superchargers are popular with Mustangs etc where they have an engine with lots of low-end torque that run "out of breath" at higher rpm, because that's exactly where the centrifugal SC is effective - at higher rpm. On a 4 cylinder engine with more modest low and mid-range torque, though, the centrifugal SC doesn't help nearly as much as the MP62 or a turbocharger. I just don't find that the inherent characteristics of a centrifugal SC are suited to a smaller displacement engine, and MUCH prefer the way the FFS system runs (on my 96, at least).

Some will say that the NC has a better torque curve than the NA or NB Miatas, so it's not as big a difference if you run a centrifugal SC - but I suspect it will still be a big difference in character.

As I'm a moderator at Miata.net, I'm not allowed to express opinions over there - here, I can! ;) I've bought a fair bit of stuff from FM, and their support is good, no question - but in a bigger company sort of way. For example, if you have a part that needs to be exchanged, you send the old one back before they ship the replacement. Tom, on the other hand, doesn't mind cross-shipping to get you back on the road faster. FM usually never has a problem replacing a problem part, but Tom just gets it done faster and friendlier! So, my opinion is that the basic design of the FFS NC SC system will result in a more satisfactory system, and I will definitely agree that Tom's quality, support, and service is unmatched.

Hi Gordon and Co.,

I'm really really new to the forum and I am not a wrench by any measure... so I'd like to apologize to all in advance if i'm late to the party when asking basic questions. :confused:

I'm getting closer to pulling the trigger on a SC. I live in South Carolina on a small island with a lot of stop and go traffic. I do not autocross or race in any fashion. I'm looking to increase whp to 30 -70 more. I'm just seeking to improve the fun of my daily driver without comprimising reliability. I own a 97 M edition with an FM race radiator, and 2.25" RacingBeat Power pulse (cat back). It is in excellent physical and mechanical shape with all her papers and parts in perfect order. The next improvement after the SC is a new clutch..but mine is still perfect at 120K.

It appears (from Gordon) that we are a bit more free to discuss the merrits of the coldside verses the hotside. I really appreciate Gordons input and his praise of Tom. I agree. Tom has been extraordianrly kind to me.

1) Is the FSS coldside for a NA a MP62 and is it a "Roots" or "centrifugal"?
2) I'm seeing 2 different options for a 'complete' kit with the difference bing the at $3695.. and a New 170whp kit with smaller pully and no E-Cool for $2995. If i'm just looking for a 'bump' in whp is the smaller kit all I need?
3) Is it possible that <snicker> with a bigger pully, E-Cool and adding the FFS throttle body can be added later to make it a monster? (Are the blowers identical?)

4) Does anyone have any 'tips', 'warnings', advice as related to this subject. I"m soooooo scared of doing expensive damage that i don't mind paying extra for that extra bit of piece of mine when it comes to purchasing a complete kit that I can count on.

5) I've been in touch with some of Tom's other competitors and I got a response that I'm hoping someone will be willing to kick this around a bit.
" Chris,
The cold side has the advantage of getting the super away from the
exhaust manifold, although the factory heatshield does a pretty good job
there anyway. The downside of the coldside is the myth of using a fifth
injector for "intercooling". Very, very difficult to get even fuel
distribution between cylinders doing it this way, leading to some
cylinders getting too much fuel and some not enough. We have seen
multiple engine disasters caused by this lack of proper fuel management.
The other downside would be installation difficulty, the hotside wins
out. Keep in mind your stated goal: you want x hp bump and easy
installation with good drivability.
Remember, *everybody is an expert* on the internet, as long as they can
type. Some of us have actually been working on Miatas for close to
twenty years. "


Thanks for everyone's time and help and I apologize again for being late to the party. :)

Chris

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Chris, that post by Gordon is from 2007 and is about the NC Miata (06-09).

1) For the 05 back, both FM-SOT and FFS use the MP62. It is a roots type blower.

2) The 160/170 WHP may be plenty for you. Stock, your car is about 105-110 at the wheels and the smaller kit will add 50-60 WHP.

3) Yes, the upgrade parts are simply bolt on.

4) If you want it basically bullet proof, add the timing card to either kit ($300 list but $225 with the kit) and beat the tar out of it.

5) The rest of you can take up the torch for the E-Cool. :devil2:

[97 M SC]

Chris, that post by Gordon is from 2007 and is about the NC Miata (06-09).

1) For the 05 back, both FM-SOT and FFS use the MP62. It is a roots type blower.

2) The 160/170 WHP may be plenty for you. Stock, your car is about 105-110 at the wheels and the smaller kit will add 50-60 WHP.

3) Yes, the upgrade parts are simply bolt on.

4) If you want it basically bullet proof, add the timing card to either kit ($300 list but $225 with the kit) and beat the tar out of it.

5) The rest of you can take up the torch for the E-Cool. :devil2:


Tom, you are getting awefully close to a sale with me. :taz:
Thanks ever so much. I'll let ya know how my SOT experiance goes this friday...but you may not hear from me until monday (busy weekend planned).

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I look forward to your opinion of your ride. They make a pretty good kit. Not as good as a Coldside :) but pretty good. Then you need a ride in a Coldside that feels just like a stock Miata with a V6.

[socal pat]

Chris, that post by Gordon is from 2007 and is about the NC Miata (06-09).

1) For the 05 back, both FM-SOT and FFS use the MP62. It is a roots type blower.

2) The 160/170 WHP may be plenty for you. Stock, your car is about 105-110 at the wheels and the smaller kit will add 50-60 WHP.

3) Yes, the upgrade parts are simply bolt on.

4) If you want it basically bullet proof, add the timing card to either kit ($300 list but $225 with the kit) and beat the tar out of it.

5) The rest of you can take up the torch for the E-Cool. :devil2:

OK I'll pick up the torch and pitchfork :). Really for just a bit more money the E-cool adds not only the ability to adjust for more fuel, but the safety margin is also very nice. The extra 25-30 horses aren't bad either.;)

[97 M SC]

OK I'll pick up the torch and pitchfork :). Really for just a bit more money the E-cool adds not only the ability to adjust for more fuel, but the safety margin is also very nice. The extra 25-30 horses aren't bad either.;)


Thanks.. but i'm really after conservative power gains....but like everyone in this forum... we are all seeking power and 'yes' perhaps i'll change my tune later. I just want to run a 'bullet' proof system and know that later i can upgrade (as i'm told i can buy the other pieces individually) and produce more whp.
Since i'm just soo new to this..... i'm interested in 'baby' steps. I want to hear from folks that say... "This way is bullet prooff--'bolt and go'" and if you seek more power do "this" but realize "this" will be a problem (ie. idle droop, cooling etc... that identifies 'weak links in the system')

It may sound contridictory....but i want more power but 'conservative power'. I'm getting the sense that I can get that with a FSS kit.

What I need to know is that a complete "conservative" 'hotside' or 'coldside'....will not have any issues (if installed properly).

I appreciate your comments. If you know of anyone within 5hrs of Hilton Head Island, SC that has a coldside that i could drive please let me know.:biggrin:

Thanks
Chris
cairdchr@hargray.com

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Base 190 WHP with the timing card is basically as 'bullet proof' as you can get while boosting your Miata. A stock Miata is not 'bullet proof'. Any boost you add, no matter how, makes the Miata less bullet proof than stock. As I evidently have more boosted miles than most anybody with any boosted system (154K total and 124K at double stock WHP), it took a broken oil pump to do it in. Nothing to do with boost.

On the other hand, you could bolt on a simple JR45 kit and the engine could die in 20 miles. Perfect safety doesn't exist. I thought the economy was safe and the best place to invest was houses. Sometimes you roll the dice and it comes up craps.

Does anybody know of any turbo Miata with a bone stock engine making 18PSI non-intercooled and no WI? If the answer is NO, then E-Cool works.

[97 M SC]

Base 190 WHP with the timing card is basically as 'bullet proof' as you can get while boosting your Miata. A stock Miata is not 'bullet proof'. Any boost you add, no matter how, makes the Miata less bullet proof than stock. As I evidently have more boosted miles than most anybody with any boosted system (154K total and 124K at double stock WHP), it took a broken oil pump to do it in. Nothing to do with boost.

On the other hand, you could bolt on a simple JR45 kit and the engine could die in 20 miles. Perfect safety doesn't exist. I thought the economy was safe and the best place to invest was houses. Sometimes you roll the dice and it comes up craps.

Does anybody know of any turbo Miata with a bone stock engine making 18PSI non-intercooled and no WI? If the answer is NO, then E-Cool works.


Tom,

Perhaps I mispoke or mis-stated my intentions or 'ideal' goal. What i mean by bullet proof or bolt and go is that what a person spends 3k+ on, 'should' perform exactly as stated. I'm not foolish enough to think that my miata won't have issues or 'weak' links in the system. It's a 11yr old car.

What I seek is assurances that the 'weak' link is not the SC itself...or worse will create more problems (idle droop, cooling,..etc). I don't mind if it works flawlessly..and my clutch goes...etc). I don't want HP at the expense of peace of mind that comes from a poorly run/manage engine. I need to know that cooling and idle droop will not be an issue (all things being equal). I don't expect some sort of promise or guarentee but rather experiances from folks who can state what they did, what went wrong, what to watch for, and what to do to fix/avoid the issue.

I'm getting a lot of feed back from only a handful of folks...so i'm going to try to reach out to more folks on this forum. (I must confess that am still lost inside this thing..but getting better slowly:redface:

Thanks for your time and input.
Chris

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Chris,

When I said "Does anybody know of any turbo Miata with a bone stock engine making 18PSI non-intercooled and no WI? If the answer is NO, then E-Cool works.", I was really asking if anybody knows of any. The E-Cool question comes up over and over. You just gave me an opportunity to ask the question and see if we can't put it to bed. 99% of those who say it "can't work" are turbo owners. Could be that it actually won't work for a turbo owner. Turbos are different. However, when they say over and over that it doesn't work, maybe someone has knowledge of some turbo somewhere that is actually running 18PSI on a bone stock Miata engine and has done so for thousands of miles with no problem. I don't think such a beast exists. I think the philosophy is that you can't run that much boost without intercooling. It just can't be done. And my answer to "it can't be done", you already know. But, for the rest of the world, here is Edgar Guest's answer to "it can't be done". This also syas it all about the FFS philosophy:

Somebody said that it couldn't be done,
But, he with a chuckle replied
That "maybe it couldn't" but he would be one
Who wouldn't say so till he'd tried.

So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn't be done, as he did it.

Somebody scoffed: "Oh, you'll never do that;
At least no one we know has done it";
But he took off his coat and he took off his hat,
And the first thing we knew he'd begun it.

With a lift of his chin and a bit of a grin,
Without any doubting or quiddit,
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn't be done, and he did it.

There are thousands to tell you it cannot be done,
There are thousands to prophesy failure;
There are thousands to point out to you, one by one,
The dangers that wait to assail you.

But just buckle right in with a bit of a grin,
Just take off your coat and go to it;
Just start to sing as you tackle the thing
That cannot be done, and you'll do it .

Edgar Guest

[chuckerants]

Chris, the reason you're only hearing from a "few" people is that on M.Net, we've all been called shills or worse for defending Tom and FFS over the years.

On THIS forum, the reason is that those few have said pretty much everything that needs to be said.

I've been a friend and a customer of Tom's for a few years now and you will not find a more open and "transparent" vendor anywhere. For example, show me another Miata vendor (or any other vendor) that will post 3d drawings of his products.

[MX-Drew]

Chris,

I had my doubts about the system so Tom invited me (and my other half) out to stay with him for about tens days and he lent me his 99 to drive while we were out there. I not only ended up buying the kit and taking back home to England in my suitcase but my partner also loved the new life the car had.

How many other vendors have that much faith in a product?

I can also vouch for the fact Tom lives for his customers, his superchargers and his yo-yos.

Tom, how about getting a car with a turbo and fitting E-cool to it? It might "put to bed" the discussion for and against E-cool once and for all.

I'm just waiting for you to do a SC for the RX-8 (is it called that in the States?) Dee has one now and I have told her it just needs a SC mind you as it will rev to 9k you might end up over spinning it.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Drew, we have several FM turbos running quite well on the PC-Pro replacing the VooDoo card.

Yep, RX8 over here as well. You wouldn't over rev the charger as you would match the pulley ratio to the engine. We'll take that under advisement.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Drew, my bad. I was thinking PC-Pro and you said E-Cool. Been a long day.

I would rather hear if there is anybody running 18PSI with a turbo on a stock Miata engine with no intercooler. I think that question alone should put it to bed. I don't think anybody can. I know I can't do it either if I remove the 5th injector.

[Steve in VC]

Tom,

18PSI from a MP62 is hotter than 18PSI from a turbo. You would need more boost out of a turbo (I calculate about 27 PSI).

When you took on a problem, you didn't fool around.

[ThomS]

Chris I am not one of the guys here that post a lot, because I dont know that much about cars. But I am learning more every day with what I have done to my car and read here with this forum. If you install any system with out a problem and do not forget anything there still is some tweaking do be done on any system. There is no better Company, Family or person than Tom and the FFS family to help solve any problem or simply discuss new and improved ways of getting the tweaking done. This is a GREAT COMPANY , GREAT PRODUCT and a great forum. But you need to add GREAT FAMILY because that is the way we feel here. I think I was the 8th kit Tom sold and have been running it for a few years now, this is a great product and has made my car so much fun. Tom how many kits are you up too now ? SO feel relaxed that you are in good company here, sorry no pun intended. But if you are worried start with the 170 WHP kit and grow to 190++. Bottom line this product will perform as stated if you get done what needs to be done on the install and your car is solid before you start.
Good luck with your decision and I hope we can welcome you to the family soon.



Chris, the reason you're only hearing from a "few" people is that on M.Net, we've all been called shills or worse for defending Tom and FFS over the years.

On THIS forum, the reason is that those few have said pretty much everything that needs to be said.

I've been a friend and a customer of Tom's for a few years now and you will not find a more open and "transparent" vendor anywhere. For example, show me another Miata vendor (or any other vendor) that will post 3d drawings of his products.

[Gman7007]

Although not an owner of one of Tom's systems "yet" I have purchased upgrades. Ditto on customer service....:yes:

And the FFS Family & Friends on the forum keep me coming back. No immaturity here, just adults (many of us young at heart) sharing their knowledge.