Are there any new results

[ThomS]

Are there any new results from 01 to 05 cars that are totally stock in there set up and what kind of numbers are they running.
I just spent four hours on a dyno machine today and made many adjustments between each run. Dont have any graphs yet but they will send them to me and I will post . BUt what they are telling me is the peak power is about 171 and there doesnt seem to be any more they can get.
Very Sad :frown: The car runs great and no codes which is a goood thing.
But I believe the numbers are true because the car does not pull away from
a 05 MSM with FM cold air full intake. :confused:

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Did they ever get the fuel issue resolved? It was going pig rich above 5000. Did they change timing card settings. Could be something wrong with the timing card?

[ThomS]

As far as I know they changed a whole lot of settings. I did not hear any ping on way home and I put the car thur some hard and easy runs.

Air fuel numbers seems to be around 14.7 for an average.
They seem to feel that they have the car set right on and have gotten all the power out of it they can, with the rest of the car still being stock.
I am a little disapointed by the numbers but no codes, thats a good thing.
But you will have to tell me about the fuel, you talked to them a lot more than I did from what I heard.
One question how could it go rich? I thought the timing card was suppose to keep it from pinging and also from going to rich?

[tann3r]

14.7 is really lean if you are under boost. Off-boost (PCPro not active), the stock ecu keeps the AFR around 14.7, but as soon as you start building boost, the PCPro should start adding fuel. 12-12.5 seems to be the target AFR under boost, I'm a little more conservative and tuned to 11.5 for track reliability.

The timing card will not keep the car from going rich or lean. It only retards timing to reduce the likelyhood of ping.

If you are really seeing 14.7 under boost, maybe the shop just retarded your timing a lot to keep it from pinging. But that would be alot of retard, and i dont think you'd even see ~170whp.

What are your settings onthe PCpro, ECool, and timing card? What kind of dyno was it on? what was the correction factor? How much time between pulls?

[ThomS]

I am sorry for not being clear. 14.7 for an average is at idle or under cruise not in boost at all.
I do not know the answers to any of your other questions yet.
The paperwork says DynoJet, not sure what model.
setting for the cards I will check today and let you know.
How much time between runs not sure but enough to talk to Tom on the phone or adjust some setting before he runs it again. like I said it was up there for 4 hours today. and did about 20 runs
correction factor ???????????????????????????

I guess my question here is this normal and all I can expect if I make no more upgrades? 171 WHP

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Last I talked to them it was going pig rich above 5000. Whether they resolved that issue or not, I have no idea. They never called back. I also suggested that they try different settings on the timing card as it is brand new device. Don't know if they tried truning it off or not.

You were starting to have ping issues where you never had them in the past. I wonder if your cat is starting to plug up. Symptoms of a plugged cat are low power, rich fuel and ping.

[ThomS]

Last I talked to them it was going pig rich above 5000. Whether they resolved that issue or not, I have no idea. They never called back. I also suggested that they try different settings on the timing card as it is brand new device. Don't know if they tried truning it off or not.

You were starting to have ping issues where you never had them in the past. I wonder if your cat is starting to plug up. Symptoms of a plugged cat are low power, rich fuel and ping.

OK lets say they are plugged. I was going to put on a new cat and mid pipe, but not new headers do not want to go thru that expense right now.
few questions
1. what kind is best to buy?
2. if the car is set right now so there is no ping and I put on this new parts then will there be more adjusting at that time?

anything else I should know?
thanks for your help to all.

[ThomS]

14.7 is really lean if you are under boost. Off-boost (PCPro not active), the stock ecu keeps the AFR around 14.7, but as soon as you start building boost, the PCPro should start adding fuel. 12-12.5 seems to be the target AFR under boost, I'm a little more conservative and tuned to 11.5 for track reliability.

The timing card will not keep the car from going rich or lean. It only retards timing to reduce the likelyhood of ping.

If you are really seeing 14.7 under boost, maybe the shop just retarded your timing a lot to keep it from pinging. But that would be alot of retard, and i dont think you'd even see ~170whp.

What are your settings onthe PCpro, ECool, and timing card? What kind of dyno was it on? what was the correction factor? How much time between

pulls?

Pc pro settings are
14.7 is idle and under cruise not at boost . Done on a dyno jet.
pc pro
gr 3/4
yellow 5
red 1
yel/ blu 2
red / blu 4

pc pro e-cool
set at 4

time card 1-2

[tann3r]

Do you have a wideband? I'd do a a few runs in third to ~5k rpm and see how your AFR is looking. Your PCPro settings are a good bit below the settings that Tom shipps them at.

When you get your dyno sheets, if they have AFR logged, we should be able to help you more.

Also I was under the impression that the timing card pulled timing in rpm zones. I'm not sure that 1-2 means.

[ThomS]

Do you have a wideband? I'd do a a few runs in third to ~5k rpm and see how your AFR is looking. Your PCPro settings are a good bit below the settings that Tom shipps them at.

When you get your dyno sheets, if they have AFR logged, we should be able to help you more.

Also I was under the impression that the timing card pulled timing in rpm zones. I'm not sure that 1-2 means.

Yes I have a AFR gauge that is how I know that my numbers are avg;14.7
and when it is doing that.
In third gear at 5000 rpm it drops to about 12.7 to 11.5 AFR

The timing card has setting just like the PC pro's, so light 1 & 2 are both on.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

1. Brian Goodwin has a good high flow cat (midpipe).
2. You will probably be lean when you put it on if it is the culprit as you will be flowing more air with the same fuel.
3. The header on the 01-05 Miata is the best money can buy. Don't ever replace it.


OK lets say they are plugged. I was going to put on a new cat and mid pipe, but not new headers do not want to go thru that expense right now.
few questions
1. what kind is best to buy?
2. if the car is set right now so there is no ping and I put on this new parts then will there be more adjusting at that time?

anything else I should know?
thanks for your help to all.

[ThomS]

1. Brian Goodwin has a good high flow cat (midpipe).
2. You will probably be lean when you put it on if it is the culprit as you will be flowing more air with the same fuel.
3. The header on the 01-05 Miata is the best money can buy. Don't ever replace it.


Thanks for the info Tom.
What about the down pipe replace it or not?
Tha cat and mid pipe I will take your advise.
Also Tom what do you think about the settings where they have them on the cards.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I do believe the header and downpipe are one piece on th 01-05.

Those settings should be ok as your A/F is OK.

[ThomS]

Tom one question and I hope this is not to dumb.
How could I be lean if the cat and mid pipe are the problem just by putting on a new one with better flow. These parts are as far as the air flow goes after the fact. After the engine has done what it needs to do with the fuel & air. Is it because if it leaves the car faster then it will run into the car fast and supply more air?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

If the cat restricts the flow, you have boost (even a little more than wanted) and the card adds fuel based on the amount of boost. So you have low actual air flow but high boost. So you have x amount of air and y amount of fuel. If you replace the cat and the restriction is gone, you will have basically the same amount of boost (y amount of fuel) but you will have more air flow. If air goes up and fuel stays the same, you have a higher amount of air to fuel. As the Air to fuel numbers increase, that is lean. 14:1 is leaner than 12:1, for example.

[ThomS]

So either way I will have more air flow, if the cat is plugged then I will have a lot more air flow and if not some more, correct? After I replace the cat and mid pipe I will have to reset the PC-PROs correct?
After all that should I or do I need to re do the dyno?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I guess it is a matter of how bad the cat is? You may only need to trim and you can do that with your wide band and up the on ramp to the freeway a couple times in 3rd/4th.

[ThomS]

I guess it is a matter of how bad the cat is? You may only need to trim and you can do that with your wide band and up the on ramp to the freeway a couple times in 3rd/4th.

The cat in this car and the mid pipe are very restrictive all by them self correct? If they are plugged at all that could be the cause of my low WHP. ?????

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

They are not very restrictive unless there is a problem and they are plugged. Then it is a matter of how plugged. If it was new, it would be not very restrictive. It is all a matter of degree.

One of the ones we did here was ~170WHP. Then we discovered the cat was plugged and replaced it with a high flow cat and dyno'd 202WHP.

[ThomS]

Is there a way I can tell if the cat is plugged at all, some kind of a test?
Most of the mechanics I have talked too, even Kenjitsu Auto says that the mid pipe is very restrictive it is a much small pipe then even the MSM turbo has. If the cat is ok, what else is left for the low WHP of 171 ?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The only way I know to test it is what we do here. On the dyno, we make a run with the exhaust in tact. Then disconnect the exhaust from the header and make a run open header. Then compare the two WHP numbers. I don't know any other way.

[ThomS]

If the cat is ok, what else is left for the low WHP of 171

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I don't know?

[Serpico]

What was your peak boost for the 171whp run?

Is your bypass valve opening/closing smoothly?

Airfilter? Not sure how dirty it gets for you Coldside guys. Mine got pretty filthy on my Hotside and I ended up getting one of those prefilter covers for the K&N filter.

If all else fails, have a compression test done to see where you're at.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Boost should be around 10PSI peak.

[ThomS]

What was your peak boost for the 171whp run?

Is your bypass valve opening/closing smoothly?

Airfilter? Not sure how dirty it gets for you Coldside guys. Mine got pretty filthy on my Hotside and I ended up getting one of those prefilter covers for the K&N filter.

If all else fails, have a compression test done to see where you're at.

All good questions and I am sorry I don't those answers, but I will get them.
Air filter is brand new maybe 500 miles only.
And when I get into it here with what ever HP I have I get it up to about 10 maybe 11 PSI boost.

Thanks for the ideas they will help some more.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Is that all the way to the rev limiter?



And when I get into it here with what ever HP I have I get it up to about 10 maybe 11 PSI boost.
.

[ThomS]

Maybe very close to rev limiter.
If not 6,000 + for sure.

No compression test was done which I will do asap and
Bypass valve seems to be working ok so Kenjitsu said..

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

I would expect 8.5-9PSI at 6000RPM. 10-10.5 at the limiter.

[ThomS]

Well I did say 6,000+ I should of said 6,000 + + ( plus plus ). I am so close to the limit but just not hitting it .

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Bypass is easy to check. Let the engine idle and open the hood. Get somebody to blip the throttle and watch the bypass valve. It should go from open to shut and back to open.

[ThomS]

Bypass is ok. but is real strange what is going on with fuel lean now..

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

It's running lean now?????

The dyno guys said it was running rich and they had to work to lower the fuel? Are you sure the cards are seeing boost? Did the small black tube fall off one of the cards or get kinked someplace?

[ThomS]

All I know for sure is that 6500 rpm it sounds like a bag of marbles.
The lean code still appears, But those are good things to check and I will.
Let you know.

[ThomS]

NO kinks in the vacuum hoses. one on the pc pro and timing card
not one on the pc pro for e-cool?

This thread really belongs in some other topic not dynos sorry it got so far away from the orginal question here.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

No hose on the card for E-Cool?


NO kinks in the vacuum hoses. one on the pc pro and timing card
not one on the pc pro for e-cool?

This thread really belongs in some other topic not dynos sorry it got so far away from the orginal question here.

[ThomS]

No hose on the card for E-Cool?

Should it have a cap on it?

[tann3r]

Should have a hose on it. All 3 cards need a boost signal.

[ThomS]

Should have a hose on it. All 3 cards need a boost signal.

NO don't think so.

No hose on the card for E-Cool?

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

There should be a black hose/tube coming from the center of the wire edge of all three cards. If not, that could be your problem.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

The cards look something like this.

http://www.FastForwardSuperchargers.com/Install/PCPro-Tubes.jpg

[ThomS]

Well there is no hose coming from the pc card for e-cool and I thought that is what you said no vacuum hose for e-cool.

[ThomS]

Should have a hose on it. All 3 cards need a boost signal.

tann3r thank you my hose for e-cool was off, no wonder it was running lean.

no hose that would do it right?

Thanks for the pic Tom it helped a lot...
Tom is there any way to keep that hose form popping off on any one of the cards?
the tip on the card is very short and I don't want to break it. It is getting very tight in that area where the cards are.
Not much room to work with..

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Yep. No hose on the ecool would make it pretty lean. I wonder if it was off when they were on the dyno?

If the hose is long enough it won't come off. I run the hoses with the wire bundle and tie wrap them.

[ThomS]

Yep. No hose on the ecool would make it pretty lean. I wonder if it was off when they were on the dyno?

If the hose is long enough it won't come off. I run the hoses with the wire bundle and tie wrap them.

Probably not off then Tom because they were having a problem then with it being too rich. And they were not getting any codes then either.

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Is there a third hose dangling around loose close by then? If it was on at the dyno, it should be there somewhere.

[FormerDatsun510Man]

The '01+ Miata have enough fuel with just the main injectors to run rich. So, I think it is possible the E-Cool hose was off and it may have caused the lower than expected rwhp results on the dyno. That is, if the setting on the PC Pro (Main injectors) was adjusted to give the rich mixture.

You will make the best power and least ping problems when running both the main injectors and the E-Cool.... especially on the ping-prone '01+ Miata.

Bill

[ThomS]

Thanks Bill and Tom and Tann3r for all your help with this question.
It all helped a lot and it is really appreciated. I will be putting on a new cat and mid pipe and get it re-tested in the spring. I also will be putting longer vacuum hoses on all the PC + timing cards so that they do not pop off any more. After all this is done I will report back and let you know the progress. Thanks again. This forum and everyone involved great and this is the most helpful forum out there...

[Tom @ Fast Forward]

Let me know when in the spring you are taking it out of hibernation.

[ThomS]

ok.. I will thanks again.